Moving out of London for secondary school?

[DaveR]

Lots of posts pointing out (correctly) that on average London schools are as good or better than the average in other areas. That doesn't alter the fact that if, for example, you are set on sending your child to a grammar school, there are places you can move to within commuting distance of London where that can be a firm plan rather than a vague hope, nor that there are other places where there are concentrations of very good schools so the chances of getting a place at one are higher than SE London, where different admissions processes etc. make it all a bit random (or at least it feels that way). I'm not surprised that some people move out and cite this as one of the reasons.

On the wider question though it seems pretty clear to me that generally London has never been safer or more accessible to teens than it is now, and that is a huge positive, notwithstanding that the 'booze drugs and boredom' stereotype of growing up anywhere else is undoubtedly exaggerated on here. FWIW, I'd at least consider moving back to my home town (Cambridge) if work permitted, but there's no way I'd commute from there to London. Plus, Cambridge is not exactly any old small town, and the houses are as expensive as round here, so no great incentive.

[Otta]

When I was a kid and we'd do the annual trip to Devon I used to absolutely love it, and always felt that the country was a great place for small kids, but that by 13 or 14 you should be in the city.

[Belle]

Funnily enough, although my post was quite negative our experiences sound quite similar! This too was the 80s (and 90s), perhaps the problems were particular to the area which was poorly served by transport and had little on offer. I also barely drank till I was 17 or so, and I don't remember feeling unhappy or bored, I read constantly and probably lived in my own head way too much. It's more that I was aware of all the things that were going on, and as a result I wouldn't choose to bring my family up there, or not without my eyes open regarding safety. There were lots of innocent pursuits I enjoyed, but I remember from 14 or so on feeling quite different and like I didn't fit in well (didn't play hockey etc, was quite studious), and I started longing to escape. But I have friends I grew up with who very much do want to bring up their families there, so it kind of illustrates how subjective the whole decision is.

slh2009 Wrote:

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> I am wondering if it is partly because times have

> changed, I was growing up in a small rural town in

> the 80s and I don't really remember being bored

> and never encountered a drug. I only remember one

> girl in my year at school getting pregnant at 15.

> I don't even think I drank alcohol until it was

> legal but I did have quite strict parents and the

> fear of being caught was too much ;-)

>

> I used to cycle for miles in the countryside with

> my friends, go to the local "big town" on the bus

> for shopping, cinema or to the parks. I guess I

> didn't know any different in those days and so to

> me this was a nice life for a teenager. I got a

> Saturday job at 16 and that kept me out of

> mischief for half the weekend.

>

>

> I left home at 18 to go to university and never

> went back (apart from weekend visits) as I got a

> taste for city life. As I said in my previous post

> I do now think about going back to raise my young

> child but I actually don't think it would be the

> same now...my mum still lives in the same town and

> said drugs are more prevalent for example. On a

> more selfish note I think I would get bored and

> maybe frustrated that, like someone else said, a

> trip to a museum etc would be a big day out rather

> than a quick easy trip.

>

> Could do with a bit more fresh air though and a

> bigger house/garden would be nice...!

[slh2009]

There are definitely pros and cons to both city and country life..!

[HannahSE23]

Not sure it's true that by moving out of London sending your kid to grammar school can be a 'firm plan'. They still need to pass the 11+. My aunt is a tutor in Kent and says grammar school places are fiercely competed for as those that miss out know they'll end up in slightly rubbish sports or technology academies. She had mums and some dads in tears in the run up to the exams panicking about their child's future. State education is still a 2 tier system in some parts...

DaveR Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lots of posts pointing out (correctly) that on

> average London schools are as good or better than

> the average in other areas. That doesn't alter

> the fact that if, for example, you are set on

> sending your child to a grammar school, there are

> places you can move to within commuting distance

> of London where that can be a firm plan rather

> than a vague hope, nor that there are other places

> where there are concentrations of very good

> schools so the chances of getting a place at one

> are higher than SE London, where different

> admissions processes etc. make it all a bit random

> (or at least it feels that way). I'm not

> surprised that some people move out and cite this

> as one of the reasons.

>

> On the wider question though it seems pretty clear

> to me that generally London has never been safer

> or more accessible to teens than it is now, and

> that is a huge positive, notwithstanding that the

> 'booze drugs and boredom' stereotype of growing up

> anywhere else is undoubtedly exaggerated on here.

> FWIW, I'd at least consider moving back to my home

> town (Cambridge) if work permitted, but there's no

> way I'd commute from there to London. Plus,

> Cambridge is not exactly any old small town, and

> the houses are as expensive as round here, so no

> great incentive.

[Loigal]

My experience of growing in the 80/90s in a market town / countryside no where near the Home Counties sounds very similar to the other posters. Endless boredom and far too much mischief. I remember being surprised by how the Londoners i met in uni seemed naive and un streetwise, some seemed to go crazy like they'd never had freedom before! I yearn frequently for the countryside and wonder about whether it would be better for the kids. I do think things have changed for the best now where I grew up, they have a cinemas, bowling, outdoor pursuits are mainstream like mountain biking and kite surfing and of course the shops are now open on Sundays and they have the Internet!! But London is wonderful and it is reassuring to hear from some posters about how great it is for teenagers. I figure it's the best of both worlds to be able to live in London (and just about afford it) and have family in the countryside to visit. Maybe retire to the countryside?

[uncleglen]

Harriet Harman managed to live in Herne Hill AND send her boy to a Kent grammar school!

[brezzo]

Orpington is 26 minutes away from Herne hill by train, an easier commute than taking a bus to Elephant.

[scareyt]

Many happy teenage hours spent on the top deck of night buses home from the Venue in New Cross - often somehow the most random and entertaining part of a night out!

Also meant to add - my boyfriend at uni grew up in a chocolate-box village in the Cotswolds and 1/2 his friends & relatives seemed to be working their way through community service orders for getting into fights after closing time with people from the next village. Maybe that was just them though.

[LondonMix]

Lots of children try to get into the Orpington Grammar schools from here.

The Orpington Grammar schools (Newstead and St Olaves) are two of the best grammar / state schools in the country?Newstead I think ranks 5th or something like that). Dulwich is within the 9 mile radius for admissions so I wouldn?t say Grammar Schools are a reason to leave Dulwich and move to Kent. St Olaves is actually linked to the Dulwich Estate.

Grammar schools admission is just based on test scores once you are in catchment so living closer doesn?t provide any advantage. Also, no one is guaranteed a place by living in Kent.

[Otta]

Loigal Wrote:

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> I remember

> being surprised by how the Londoners i met in uni

> seemed naive and un streetwise, some seemed to go

> crazy like they'd never had freedom before!

I also met "Londoners" like this at uni. Turned out they were from the very outskirts. But yeah, they all went mental in their first year doing all the stuff that a lot of us had speared out between 14 and 18.

scareyt Wrote:

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> Many happy teenage hours spent on the top deck of

> night buses home from the Venue in New Cross -

> often somehow the most random and entertaining

> part of a night out!

If this was early to mid 90s I was probably on the same bus.

[scareyt]

Yep! Hm actually late 80s early 90s as I am quite old. Once my friend had a Mills & Boon novel in her bag and ended up reading it out loud as a bedtime story to everyone on the top deck at 3am.

[canela]

ok, so now I am worried. we HAVE to leave London due to house prices and personal situation. kids v excited about moving, keen for normal size house rather than show box and keen for a bit more green.....BUT are we now consigning them to a teenagehood of boredom and depression????

[Tallulahdoesthehula]

We moved out three years ago now and I can honestly say don't regret the decision at all.

For me it wasn't the quality of the education on London schools, it was the safety/ environment side in terms of gangs / knives / guns etc.

I didn't grow up in London myself and schools with CCTV/ metal detectors / security akin to that in the prison system was alien to me, when it felt like the norm (as it did after a few years) I questioned whether I wanted that to be the norm for my kids.

I also hated the lack of large school fields (or even grass for that matter).

I grew up in Kent and can honestly say I wasn't aware of any drugs at my school and only one teen pregnancy in my time there. The worse that people got up to was smoking / alcohol but even then it wasn't until

Much later.

I don't remember being bored..... We had lots of freedom and would go off on the train to places when we reached 13 /14 - prior to that it was off on your bike and round your mates house, playing in fields / woods / swimming etc

I don't think there is a right or wrong thing to do, like every decision there are pros and cons. It's working out what is important to you, what your fears are etc and makkonh the best decision for you / your family.

[Tanza]

Just to say my experience growing up as a teenager in London chimes exactly with ScaryT's experience.

London is a brilliant place for teenagers to grow up. As a young teen, the whole of Camden/Hampstead/Kentish Town/Archway/Hampstead was our stamping ground - walking in groups to parties, hanging out on Hampstead Heath, coming home on the bus together. We walked miles and miles across a whole swathe of that part of London - flitting between each other's houses at weekends.

We tended to stay reasonably local, mostly hanging out at school-related parties at nearby pubs and we rarely bothered going into central London, apart from shopping at Top Shop or on outings that we deigned to go with parents. We did have the Camden Palais on our doorstep though.

So 'our' London was fairly small - probably much the same area that a cat or fox might claim as their own. From what I can see this part of SE London has a similar vibe. I'm sure teenagers have a brilliant time in this area.

As an older teenager, coming back from University to London, I felt like I lived at the centre of the universe and have to say (ha, ha) that I pitied my University pals who lived in places that I considered to be backwaters (ahem).

[LondonMix]

Which local schools in Dulwich have metal detectors?

Tallulahdoesthehula Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> We moved out three years ago now and I can

> honestly say don't regret the decision at all.

>

> For me it wasn't the quality of the education on

> London schools, it was the safety/ environment

> side in terms of gangs / knives / guns etc.

>

> I didn't grow up in London myself and schools with

> CCTV/ metal detectors / security akin to that in

> the prison system was alien to me, when it felt

> like the norm (as it did after a few years) I

> questioned whether I wanted that to be the norm

> for my kids.

>

> I also hated the lack of large school fields (or

> even grass for that matter).

>

> I grew up in Kent and can honestly say I wasn't

> aware of any drugs at my school and only one teen

> pregnancy in my time there. The worse that people

> got up to was smoking / alcohol but even then it

> wasn't until

> Much later.

>

> I don't remember being bored..... We had lots of

> freedom and would go off on the train to places

> when we reached 13 /14 - prior to that it was off

> on your bike and round your mates house, playing

> in fields / woods / swimming etc

>

> I don't think there is a right or wrong thing to

> do, like every decision there are pros and cons.

> It's working out what is important to you, what

> your fears are etc and makkonh the best decision

> for you / your family.

[Townleygreen]

No, but grammar schools in Kent - the local authority (not Bromley, the London Borough where Newstead and Olave's are) are significantly easier to get into than Newstead and Olave's. Almost every town in Kent has a boys and girls grammar school.

Not saying they're easy to get into though!! Easier is the key word.

[Dun]

Like some have said it does depend on you, your children & your circumstances. We decided to stay but have friends who left. Most chose between the Harpenden area or Tunbridge/Tonbridge areas. Some are happy, others regret the move. One thing some hadn't realised was that the Kent grammer schools only take 20% of the children going into secondary school. That's a LOT who don't get into the grammer schools and the comprehensives are not great. You also have to factor in a LOT of chauffering your children everywhere. There seems to be a lot of alcohol & drug taking but I think that is more a factor of children with access to money more then location. There is no easy or clear cut answer so everyone has to weigh up the factors that are important to them, it is just important to go in with your eyes open.

[bawdy-nan]

indeed .... curious to know which they are ...none that I've come across looking around ...

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Which local schools in Dulwich have metal

> detectors?

>

>

> Tallulahdoesthehula Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > We moved out three years ago now and I can

> > honestly say don't regret the decision at all.

> >

> > For me it wasn't the quality of the education

> on

> > London schools, it was the safety/ environment

> > side in terms of gangs / knives / guns etc.

> >

> > I didn't grow up in London myself and schools

> with

> > CCTV/ metal detectors / security akin to that

> in

> > the prison system was alien to me, when it felt

> > like the norm (as it did after a few years) I

> > questioned whether I wanted that to be the norm

> > for my kids.

> >

> > I also hated the lack of large school fields

> (or

> > even grass for that matter).

> >

> > I grew up in Kent and can honestly say I wasn't

> > aware of any drugs at my school and only one

> teen

> > pregnancy in my time there. The worse that

> people

> > got up to was smoking / alcohol but even then

> it

> > wasn't until

> > Much later.

> >

> > I don't remember being bored..... We had lots

> of

> > freedom and would go off on the train to places

> > when we reached 13 /14 - prior to that it was

> off

> > on your bike and round your mates house,

> playing

> > in fields / woods / swimming etc

> >

> > I don't think there is a right or wrong thing

> to

> > do, like every decision there are pros and

> cons.

> > It's working out what is important to you, what

> > your fears are etc and makkonh the best

> decision

> > for you / your family.

[Otta]

I work for the education department in an East London borough, and visit different schools all the time.

Have never seen a metal detector, and only the very odd CCTV Camera, which seems perfectly sensible in a reception area IMO.

[Otta]

Otta Wrote:

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> and only the very odd CCTV Camera, which seems perfectly

> sensible in a reception area IMO.

And I mean to protect staff from potentially angry / aggressive parents rather than kids.

[Otta]

There is one school which makes me laugh because it was designed by architects that specialise in prisons (seriously) and if you imagine any prison movie you've seen, with the central hall with staircases in the middle, and cells around the edges... Replace the cells with classrooms and that is this school. Must have rubbed off on them because they have the strictest security, never letting me through without being met by a member of school staff, even though they knew me by name and saw me every week.

But still no metal detectors or CCTV in that school.

At the end of the day, the vast vast majority of teens are fine wherever they grow up. Yes city kids may have more opportunities to go out and experience nightlife a bit earlier, but country kids will have experiences that city kids won't.

And teens definitely get bored and depressed in London too, believe me!

[LondonMix]

I wonder if Tallulah visited any London schools before concluding they were overrun with gangs and run like prisons!

[simonethebeaver]

I grew up in dull suburbia, where my parents moved for a good school. It was fine. Hard to know how much of the casual racism and homophobia were of their time - this was twenty years ago - but as a swotty teenager I yearned for excitement and culture, Adrian Mole style. No more drinking, drugs and pregnancy than anywhere else particularly. I vowed never to return but occasionally I look at the schools and the price of housing and GET why we moved there, from zone 3 London. I suspect that's more the experience - to go somewhere duller on the outskirts rather than plunge into rural isolation. My old school is not a grammar, although does select I think some proportion of kid on ability, and regularly outperforms most grammar schools, so I can see why parents are prepared to head to one of the dullest places on earth!

[Gubodge]

Although I posted of the deaths of friends, it should be noted that I'm still here. I did have a lovely childhood, climbing trees, swimming in the river and setting of for hours on end with a friend, one on a bike, one on her pony. Although it should also be noted that I didn't actually like the friend, but she was the only girl of anything close to my age in the village. And in my later teens after we'd swum in the river we'd lounge on the bank smoking dope and necking cider; so not quite Swallows and Amazons. So it's not that a country childhood can't be great, just it shouldn't be assumed that it's a safe, 1950s bubble.

But back to schools...I visited Newstead Woods last year, and if that's one of the best grammars in the country then I definitely won't be moving to Kent. The local schools around here were vastly more impressive.