In response to general issues "iceland closure"

[EDLove]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> Iceland does some OK stuff. Their milk is cheap.

Cheap milk shouldn't be viewed as a positive thing; it should be concerning. It certainly is to dairy farmers losing their livelihood. But, as long as the bargain-hunters of East Dulwich can have a nice chat with the friendly workers of Iceland whilst fuelling a demand for low-priced produce, who cares about those farming communities or ethics...?

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/25/observer-view-on-supermarket-prices-dairy-farmers

[Otta]

I am no expert, but alas I suspect the staff will be buggered. Iceland is not being taken over by M&S, so TUPE Regulations probably won't apply.

[Otta]

Perhaps it would be an idea for someone (Louisa I'm looking at you) to write to M&S HQ and tell them what great staff Iceland has, and ask whether they could do anything for them. I believe the staff have yet to be offered anything else within the Iceland empire.

[Rolo Tomasi]

You're right Otta.

[BrandNewGuy]

EDLove Wrote:

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> rahrahrah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Iceland does some OK stuff. Their milk is

> cheap.

>

> Cheap milk shouldn't be viewed as a positive

> thing; it should be concerning. It certainly is to

> dairy farmers losing their livelihood. But, as

> long as the bargain-hunters of East Dulwich can

> have a nice chat with the friendly workers of

> Iceland whilst fuelling a demand for low-priced

> produce, who cares about those farming communities

> or ethics...?

>

> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/

> 25/observer-view-on-supermarket-prices-dairy-farme

> rs

Iceland are unlikely to be getting their milk cheaper than other ? bigger ? retailers. They're just happier with a smaller margin at retail.

And milk production has had less and less to do with 'farming communities' for some while now.

By all means criticise the industry, but don't single out Iceland.

[EDLove]

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

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> EDLove Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > rahrahrah Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Iceland does some OK stuff. Their milk is

> > cheap.

> >

> > Cheap milk shouldn't be viewed as a positive

> > thing; it should be concerning. It certainly is

> to

> > dairy farmers losing their livelihood. But, as

> > long as the bargain-hunters of East Dulwich can

> > have a nice chat with the friendly workers of

> > Iceland whilst fuelling a demand for low-priced

> > produce, who cares about those farming

> communities

> > or ethics...?

> >

> >

> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/

>

> >

> 25/observer-view-on-supermarket-prices-dairy-farme

>

> > rs

>

> Iceland are unlikely to be getting their milk

> cheaper than other ? bigger ? retailers. They're

> just happier with a smaller margin at retail.

>

> And milk production has had less and less to do

> with 'farming communities' for some while now.

>

> By all means criticise the industry, but don't

> single out Iceland.

Did you read the article?

'The ad puts Marks & Spencer at the top of the league, paying 78p for four pints to farmers for milk that costs 68p to produce. Sainsbury?s pays 72p for four pints while, at the bottom of the league, Lidl, Aldi and Iceland pay 56p to 59p. It?s not enough.'

I'm more than happy to criticise the other retailers but this thread is about Iceland...

[Otta]

EDLove Wrote:

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> But, as long as the bargain-hunters of East Dulwich can

> have a nice chat with the friendly workers of

> Iceland whilst fuelling a demand for low-priced

> produce, who cares about those farming communities

> or ethics...?

It's easy to have ethics when you're not on a tight budget.

[EDLove]

Otta Wrote:

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> EDLove Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > But, as long as the bargain-hunters of East

> Dulwich can

> > have a nice chat with the friendly workers of

> > Iceland whilst fuelling a demand for low-priced

> > produce, who cares about those farming

> communities

> > or ethics...?

>

>

>

> It's easy to have ethics when you're not on a

> tight budget.

Mmm, this response seems a bit at odds with reports that, despite the economic downturn, the purchase of ethical products (like fair trade) and produce that is locally produced, is actually on the rise. Seems that less money doesn't necessarily mean that people are less considerate.

[BrandNewGuy]

EDLove Wrote:

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> 'The ad puts Marks & Spencer at the top of the

> league, paying 78p for four pints to farmers for

> milk that costs 68p to produce. Sainsbury?s pays

> 72p for four pints while, at the bottom of the

> league, Lidl, Aldi and Iceland pay 56p to 59p.

> It?s not enough.'

I'd take an ad from one of the big retailers with a big pinch of salt. It's very likely to be a snapshot rather than anything that reflects long-term prices and like-for-like comparisons (as the ad itself admits when it says sourcing from co-ops might pay higher prices). The supermarkets play the same game with their 'cheaper than...' ads.

[Otta]

EDLove Wrote:

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> Otta Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > EDLove Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > But, as long as the bargain-hunters of East

> > Dulwich can

> > > have a nice chat with the friendly workers of

> > > Iceland whilst fuelling a demand for

> low-priced

> > > produce, who cares about those farming

> > communities

> > > or ethics...?

> >

> >

> >

> > It's easy to have ethics when you're not on a

> > tight budget.

>

> Mmm, this response seems a bit at odds with

> reports that, despite the economic downturn, the

> purchase of ethical products (like fair trade) and

> produce that is locally produced, is actually on

> the rise. Seems that less money doesn't

> necessarily mean that people are less considerate.

I'm not talking about the people having to tighten their belts a bit, I'm talking about the people feeding their family on a shoestring.

[EDLove]

Otta Wrote:

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> EDLove Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Otta Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > EDLove Wrote:

> > >

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> >

> > > -----

> > > > But, as long as the bargain-hunters of East

> > > Dulwich can

> > > > have a nice chat with the friendly workers

> of

> > > > Iceland whilst fuelling a demand for

> > low-priced

> > > > produce, who cares about those farming

> > > communities

> > > > or ethics...?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > It's easy to have ethics when you're not on a

> > > tight budget.

> >

> > Mmm, this response seems a bit at odds with

> > reports that, despite the economic downturn,

> the

> > purchase of ethical products (like fair trade)

> and

> > produce that is locally produced, is actually

> on

> > the rise. Seems that less money doesn't

> > necessarily mean that people are less

> considerate.

>

>

> I'm not talking about the people having to tighten

> their belts a bit, I'm talking about the people

> feeding their family on a shoestring.

Seriously? You've decided to respond with an example of abject poverty, rather than the average East Dulwich consumer? Brilliant.

It's not unreasonable to suggest that people seriously think about why their milk/bananas/coffee/clothing is so cheap and try to make ethical decisions as a result. Yes, this is likely to be more difficult for those on very tight budgets but it certainly is realistic for the rest of the population.

Brand New Guy - The ad was endorsed by the National Farmers Union which also points out that only certain supermarkets have schemes in place that pay a sustainable price to farmers.

[Otta]

There are people on tight budgets in ED. They are the people I'm thinking of. The average consumer in ED probably doesn't get their milk from Iceland.

[spider69]

New residents in ED have their head up their arse that they have no idea of the real world.

All they are worried about is how I can protect my over paid house,s value.

Lets wish for a new financial crash and see how things change.

[Ron70]

spider69 Wrote:

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> New residents in ED have their head up their arse

> that they have no idea of the real world.

>

> All they are worried about is how I can protect my

> over paid house,s value.

>

> Lets wish for a new financial crash and see how

> things change.

Yep, "lets wish for a new financial crash".... genius!

[KidKruger]

"New residents in ED have their head up their arse that they have no idea of the real world.

All they are worried about is how I can protect my over paid house,s value.

Lets wish for a new financial crash and see how things change."

Chip on your shoulder or what bro ?

[Earl Aelfheah]

I'm not convinced that Iceland is particularly cheap. It has a few very good value basics (milk being the main one), but actually a lot of the food is really poor value - heavily processed, high fat / salt. People are picking a couple of things Iceland do offer at a good price and making out like the whole operation is some kind of hero to people on a budget. I would say they're closer to a villain if anything. People on a budget don't need to be sold poor quality, bad value frozen meals - and this is Iceland's core business. M&S is arguably very similar in many ways (heavily processed, 'value added' (aka ripoff) ready meals) - but at least they're generally flogging the stuff to people who can afford to waste their money.

The caricature of Iceland as a life line to those on a budget doesn't stand up IMO. Lidl maybe, independent grocers and wholesale places certainly - Iceland - not so much.

[Earl Aelfheah]

... just to add - last survey I saw about this, Iceland were actually more expensive on Frozen than their competitors (although this may have changed).

[Jeremy]

Partially agree RRR. The core range of frozen convenience food is crap of course, but "value" is subjective.. huge "deep-pan" pizzas for ?1, chicken curry for ?1.50, etc. It's not hard to see why people short on money and time would buy this stuff.

[miga]

r^3, I agree that cheap food doesn't have to be heavily processed and bad for your health, but to cook healthy cheap food is actually a pretty time consuming exercise, and not one that is easily carried out by e.g. shift workers with kids.

Iceland was done in by a demographic shift, some will feel they've lost a useful service, but presumably many more will be happy with M&S offerings (otherwise they'll quickly go out of business).

[Otta]

What Jeremy & Miga said. Forget the quality, it's cheap easy hot food that fills a belly. For some people that is an attractive offer.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Sure, I accept what you're saying with regards the attractions of low price, poor quality processed food. But it comes at a pretty terrible cost to health. For that reason I'm not particularly keen to mourn Iceland's passing. That's not to say that M&S is much better.

As I said, if you were talking about the cheap wholesale places, or fresh food stalls (which are fairly abundant in Peckham) being forced out of business by 'gentrification', then I would be 100% with you.

Likewise Lidl - which does sell 'proper' food at low prices.

[DaveR]

"I am no expert, but alas I suspect the staff will be buggered. Iceland is not being taken over by M&S, so TUPE Regulations probably won't apply."

I am also no expert, but TUPE is definitely not limited to corporate takeover situations, so Iceland staff should be getting proper advice.

[Earl Aelfheah]

TUPE doesn't apply here, so the staff have no protections. I think Otta's idea about writing to M&S suggesting that they look to re-employ the Iceland staff is a great one.

[Earl Aelfheah]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> Sure, I accept what you're saying with regards the

> attractions of low price, poor quality processed

> food. But it comes at a pretty terrible cost to

> health. For that reason I'm not particularly keen

> to mourn Iceland's passing. That's not to say that

> M&S is much better.

.... btw, I do realise that this sounds a little sanctimonious. To be clear, it's not that I'm against people being able to make their own choices, or that I don't understand the pressures on someone working double shifts and juggling childcare on low pay. It's just that I can't find it in my heart to mourn Iceland.

[miga]

Of course, I don't get the idea of mourning a branch of any particular big business either, but I think people were more mourning the loss of a service they used, rather than some emotional attachment to the idea of Iceland (in most cases). And I agree with you that the stuff like the frozen pizzas and a lot of ready meals etc isn't particularly healthy, but that's just symptomatic of the world we live in. Cheapest and most convenient food is processed, fatty and salty. It's interesting that the poorest are much more likely to be obese (a cursory Google will show various studies and newspaper articles to support this). The criticism levelled at Iceland as a purveyor of unhealthy food is probably correct, but Iceland is a symptom, not the cause.