Hillsborough Disaster - What exactly is this Justice for the '96?

[Huguenot]

You're making a massive leap there with 'the media and government helped them do it' - you're accusing people of a massive cross-institutional conspiracy with malicious intent.

There's no evidence of any such thing, and there's no sense in escalating this into a national conspiracy to victimise Liverpool.

[Otta]

Admin could you hide this thread please.

I started it years ago to ask a question that genuinely interested me, i.e. what would need to happen for the families to feel that justice had been done.

Apparently this is too emotive a subject for some people to discuss, which is fair enough.

Now though Atticus is acting like a dog who thinks he has a juicy bone, and has dredged this up simply to find a reason to argue with someone.

[Otta]

Actually, getting back to the original question, I've just heard Jenny Hicks & Margaret Aspinall on Radio 4. Jenny Hicks always comes across as very calm and collected, although obviously still suffering. Margaret Aspinall always comes over as the angry one (understandably), I guess that shows how different people cope.

Anyway, MA said they intended to have their lawers write to every individual police officer who's statement was changed, and wanted them named and shamed, as she felt they knew their statements had been altered, and they should have come forward. She definitely has a point, but equally, we have no idea what sort of internal preesure these people were put under to keep quiet.

Either way, it looks like Justice will mean EVERYONE not just those at the top being somehow punished.

Jenny Hicks just seemed much more interested in the fact the truth was out, and wanting the inquest repoened.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01mqm9d

[Huguenot]

Truth seems secondary to vengeance in Margaret Aspinall's case then?

[Otta]

I'll let people listen to her if they're interested, and make their own minds up.

[Annasfield]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You're making a massive leap there with 'the media

> and government helped them do it' - you're

> accusing people of a massive cross-institutional

> conspiracy with malicious intent.

>

> There's no evidence of any such thing, and there's

> no sense in escalating this into a national

> conspiracy to victimise Liverpool.

Of course there is evidence. I suggest you try and read some of the report. You've made a statement that you clearly know nothing about.

[woodrot]

enough please - there are no points to be gained from futhering this discussion - everything you need to know to come to a decision can be viewed in recent BBC articles.

[Huguenot]

Annasfield, I've just been through all the current summaries of the new findings, and I can find nothing that suggests a massive cross-institutional conspiracy of government and media with malicious intent.

I can find plenty of examples of shocking and potentially criminal contributions to this tragedy, but nothing on the national scale that you claim. There seems to be an issue with proportion and perspective.

It's responses like yours that make me think that there are those whose version of the Hillsborough tragedy is as much a rewriting of history as the those of the police officers who amended their evidence.

As I've said before, there is no resolution or reconciliation in this approach. There is only vengeance and continued conflict.

Every time I see your badge that says 'don't buy the sun' I am reminded of the peculiar conviction that of the tens of thousands smeared by this tabloid over the decades, Liverpool fans believe that theirs is the only complaint that actually counts.

[Otta]

Okay, what woodrot said.

I should have stuck with my earlier request, it was just the coincidence of them being on the radio that led me to post again.

Error!

[Annasfield]

This is the document provided by a Sheffield Press agency that commenced the smear.

http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/repository/docs/NGN000000010001.pdf

And FYI Liverpool fans (and in fact the people of Liverpool) don't believe that theirs (ours) is the only complaint that counts. But they've dared to stand up against an incidence where they were accused of atrocious actions which were not true. The reason the PM offered an apology last week Wednesday because the fans and people of that city have campaigned to make sure that everyone else knows exactly what actually happened that day.

With apologies to Woodrot for posting in the thread again.

[Huguenot]

Well then, if that was the source then it's not a conspiracy is it? It was a Sheffield Press Agency.

There's no need to apologise at all. If you wish to continue the conversation go ahead, despite Woodrot's frequent attempt to end threads on his terms, he has no mandate here.

[Alan Medic]

Were you there Anna?

[Otta]

FFS!

[Alan Medic]

I was curious Otta. I don't know her so if she was writing as someone who witnessed the events it would mean a lot. She only ever posts here when it's to do with Hillsborough.

[Otta]

Anna would have been about 8 at the time. She posts as a very loyal match going Liverpool fan.

Had the Anna of today been there, her blood alcohol level definitely would have been high! ;-)

I'm 99% sure she wasn't there that day thank God. We've chatted about it, and I've been honest with her about not "getting" the fans feelings about it, and she said it was something the match going fans really felt, so we accepted that then got pissed.

Sorry to speak for you Anna.

[Annasfield]

No I wasn't there. I "she" rarely post on the forum these days because quite frankly I don't really enjoy it anymore. I've felt compelled to post about Hillsborough because I feel that some of the comments have been quite insensitve and also ill informed.

[Michael Palaeologus]

I was of the opinion that the Hillsborough campaigners should draw a line and move on. The review and report has made me ashamed of that opinion.

There is evidence of a police cover up, there is evidence of a cover up by the ambulance service, there is evidence of subsequent manipulation of evidence by local politicians and evidence of at best, profound naivety by national politicians and the national press, possibly even a cover up. Kelvin McKenzie should be horse-whipped, "I believed the voices of authority" - tosser. He was the editor of a national newspaper, he was paid NOT to believe the voices of authority.

Whether these cover-ups were coordinated, we dont know; but to assume that they were not, at least at some level, is itself naive, given the vast amount of systematic manipulation and lies perpetrated by various elements of authority.

Many of those responsible are alive and well and should face criminal charges.

Only then can we draw a line and move on.

[Huguenot]

I think it's clumsy to assume that events require a conspiracy when momentum is quite sufficient.

[Michael Palaeologus]

I am not assuming a conspiracy, I am saying that it does not look unlikely.

In any given cock-up vs conspiracy debate, normally I will be the one seeing a cock-up and pouring scorn on the conspiracy minded.

In this case, I am not so sure. It needs more detailed investigation.

For the state, its aparatus, politicians and the press to be so wrong, for so long, without there being some cooperation, to my mind, is unlikely. A conspiracy at a national level, perhaps not. At the South Yorkshire regional level, that could happen. That the state then did not want to dig too deeply, not challenge the official version of things, that could happen too.

Simple momentum is in itself a clumsy, formless and directionless force. For it to have so universally blanketed the truth for so long, strains credulity.

[Atticus]

Otta, dog with a bone? Pathetic. This is more than oneupmanship, show some respect to the subject. This thread is as highly relevant now as it was then,If you feel shit for starting it don't blame it on me.

Huguenot, money, really? A deliberately provocative statement, if not, just pig ignorant.

Michael, a brave admission, one which stands out amongst much of the side stepping dross I've read on this forum recently.

[Otta]

I don't feel shit for starting it, I just feel shit that you are using it to continue your quest for a row.

[Huguenot]

"Huguenot, money, really? A deliberately provocative statement, if not, just pig ignorant."

Knew you were looking for it. I think I've worked hard enough across the years not to be accused of being 'pig ignorant' unless you're looking for a fight.

Look, enjoy yourself. The world isn't as simple or the people as simplistic as you'd like to make them.

[Parkdrive]

Huguenot Wrote:

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> Truth seems secondary to vengeance in Margaret

> Aspinall's case then?

Are you asking a question, or is this your view. If it's your view, I would have to say that you are showing a huge degree of insensitivity. Your statements and posts on this thread seem designed to provoke and antagonise the like of Anna for no other reason than to take some kind of warped satisfaction when they react. "The world isn't as simple or the people as simplistic as you'd like to make them". Maybe, but the reverse is also true.

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

Ignore post.

Completely screwed up trying to post in another thread.

[Huguenot]

I think whether it's insensitive or not is moot. I'm certainly not trying to get a rise out of anyone.

Now is a moment to find balance and perspective to identify a true form of justice for those directly involved. I hope that my views are held in that light, and more importantly I think that views such as mine are a critical contribution to the debate.

This tribal mentality is frankly frightening, the wilful ignorance and rewriting of history by the fans is as grotesque as the adjusted police statements.

The willingness of barely related individuals to leap on the retribution bandwagon for an incident that happened to people before they were born in a different social era is gratuitous.

I find the current 'fan response' to be disproportionate. There has been no grand conspiracy of government, media and the authorities to target Liverpool. There has been human error, negligence, defensiveness and stupidity.

Let he who is without sin on these cast the first stone, and let's apply that maxim first to the 'Liverpool faithful' singing about Munich shall we?