Hillsborough Disaster - What exactly is this Justice for the '96?

[snorky]

pointless

[Keef]

It is pure supposition to say that any group of English may have acted in the same manner

Of course it is, and we'll never know, but it's not like every other English fan outside of Liverpool was a well behaved angel!

Snorky, I saw what you wrote, and I have no idea whether it is true or not. I was 10 when Hillsborough happened, and about 5 or 6 for Heysel, so have no first hand experience of any of it. All I would say is that thankfully it's the past, and Liverpool fans, and most other fans are now generally there for the footy, whoever was guilty once upona time.

[Atila Reincarnate]

Putting the question of who was to blame aside for either Heysel or Hillsborough, why is it that the same outpouring of grief is not evident for those hwo died when Bradford's stand (at least I think it was Bradford) caught fire??

[matthew123]

Keef, you started up a thread about what 'is this Justice'? Well let me quote from the Guardian someone who lost their son and maybe this will help answer your question: Margaret Aspinall, "vice-chair of the Hillsborough Family Support Group, said the 3.15 cut-off was 'the biggest issue' for the families. 'There are huge, unanswered questions. How many could have survived if they had had proper care, and oxygen? Even now, we want reopened inquests beyond 3.15.'"

Also from the same report, "The biggest grievance centres on the coroner's decision at the inquest to impose a 3.15 p.m. cut-off time -- saying the victims were all dead or fatally injured by then." and "Dr Iain West, consultant forensic pathologist at London's Guy's hospital," who examined one victim, said he, "died from severe neck injuries, and could have been saved had he been treated early enough. There may have been other victims who were recoverable after 3.15".

It's been 20 years since Hillsborough and the cry for Justice has been strong throughout that time in various guises which you should know very well. I am bamboozled to know why you think the supporters who shout for justice do not know 'what the hell it means'. During my 20 years as a season ticket holder on the Kop I can tell you it's still a very red raw emotional subject. Those people who were at Anfield yesterday were there to pay their respects and some were able to contain their emotion more than others. Justice is not simply send someone to the gallows it's also about uncovering the truth - that in essense is why the Justice campaign persists.

>> By the way, how would you personally feel if it had been Chelsea,

>> Arsenal, or Man U fans in there that day? I am sure you'd think

>> it very sad, but would you still be calling for justice, or is

>> that specifically a Liverpool thing?

I'd have been sickened by this disaster happening to anyone, I'd certainly not shrug my shoulders at yet another Police cover up.

Why is this 'Liverpool family' analogy a fantasy - I've gone to in excess of 600 games with Liverpool during the last 21 years home and away, and there is a bond, a relationship, between Liverpool supporters. Many football supporters of other clubs that follows his/her team will subscribe to similar sentiment.

I know you started the thread with the best of intentions Keef but you asked a question and I hope this has finally answered it. The above is not meant to sweep under the carpet other tragedies - including Heysel, which Liverpool have taken primary responsibility, and which also bring a tear to my eye.

[Keef]

You've not told me anything new there Matthew, I have read most of the lit on the subject, and please do't think I think the families have no cause to complain, I really just wanted to know what would be a satisfactory outcome for them.

I can't explain my feelings on this better than I have, but I don't think I'm getting it across very well.

[matthew123]

A satisfactory outcome would be the inquests to be reopened beyond the 3.15 p.m. cut off time. That then goes back to my original post, as to why were supporters denied medical attention when it was clear even amongst the Police that there was a disaster at hand. This is the whole point of why the campaign for justice persists.

[????]

I agree with Keith on Heysel - I think that most big clubs with big followings WOULD have acted the same at Heysel...I don't know any of your history (age etc) Atila but if you went to football up until Heysel I think you'd have to say that ritual charging/aggravation was the norm on terraces...by the 80s the police in England had largely got to grips with this, abroad, less so, when the Liverpool fans charged (after missiles had been thrown at them) without any adequate policing the italian fans not used to this ran away in panic in a crumbling stadium...Of coures it's the Liverpol fans' fault but I know West Ham would have done the same ad I'm pretty sure Arsenal fans would have too. English teams in europe spelt trouble almost without exception.

I disagree with Keith on Hillsboro - I think that the victims deserved (and still do) a proper enquiry and some redress.

[Acid Casual]

I think one thing should be clear.

Hillsborough was absolutely nothing to do with "hooliganism" and it does the victims an injustice to suggest otherwise.

I expect I'll be quite unpopular here, but as an ex-football "hooligan" (although I prefer casual or dresser as a term of description) What happened that day bore no relation to anything I was ever involved in whatsoever, and without going much further, believe me, I know what I'm talking about.

The sad fact is that what happened that day was an accident waiting to happen and could have happened to any club at any ground. Post Heysel, Margaret Thatcher would have quite happily closed football down in the UK, but as she couldn't do that, she elected to compound the already poor conditions suffered by football fans by being complicit in turning already dangerous and decrepit grounds into death traps with the introduction of fences and other measures of control.

Did it deter me and my like? not a jot. Most of our work was done at train stations and en route to the grounds by the late 80's. Did it "deter" Dads and lads from misbehaving? Well, no because there was nothing to deter. So it is a tragic irony that the ill-considered response to Heysel ended up being the thing that killed those poor people who were totally blameless, God rest them.

The government of the day have blood on their hands, as do South Yorkshire Police. I think one thing is certain though, I'd put serious cash on the my hunch that not one of the 96 that died would have had any sort of conviction for or involvement in football violence.

A sad, sad day.

JFT96.

[????]

...and so do x-fooball hooligans Acid.......

[Mick Mac]

I'm amazed anyone would come on and profess/confess to beimg a football hooligan Acid - surely you would be ashamed of that and keep it quiet?

[Acid Casual]

Not strictly. As I've said, the events of that day are unrecognisable to me.

It took several years after Heysel (I assume that's what you're referring to) until any sort of action was taken to deal with football violence properly by isolating hooligans from families when considering the problem, for instance banning orders, confiscation of passports, the football intelligence unit, etc. Within two years of the Taylor report, we all knew the game was up.

What was the impetus of the Taylor report?...

Tragic, but true.

[Acid Casual]

Actually, an ex-football "hooligan" Actions undertaken between the ages of 15 to around 20. A long time ago.

Not going to go into justifications or otherwise on a thread like this.

[AllforNun]

Why would you be amazed ? Only if you just believed all the shite fed to you in the newspapers....is anyone ashamed of rioting during the poll tax issue, i think not. This period was a turning point for this country as is hurtled to wards a police state, and embraced capitalism with wild abadonment, smash the miners and smash large groups of men, the crowd can be a very dangerous thing, especially to the state, it is after all very unliberal.

[????]

MM - I've had this conversation before....so many times..football in the 70s and 80s was so different to what it is today, but if you were of a certain age from a certain background supporting your team, especially away, for many meant some type of 'involvement' in hooliganism even at the periphery. Was that right? No. Is that something to be proud of? No.is it a reality. Yes. should you keep it quiet, dunno. But that was then, and younger or newer supporters have no idea of what it was like then...

[Acid Casual]

AllforNun Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Why would you be amazed ? Only if you just

> believed all the shite fed to you in the

> newspapers....is anyone ashamed of rioting during

> the poll tax issue, i think not. This period was a

> turning point for this country as is hurtled to

> wards a polica state, and embraced capitalism with

> wild abadonment, smash the miners and smash large

> groups of men, the crowd can be a very dangerous

> thing, especially to the state, it is after all

> very unliberal.

Not a million miles away there. Football hooliganism was a product of these times.

Anyway, in danger of getting off topic, so sorry about that.

[Mick Mac]

Well I was in Ireland then and English football holliganism seemed like a world away - we could not really understand it, but if you say it was the norm then so be it, but I doubt I would have been involved.

[AllforNun]

No stay on topic, this is what its all about, getting to the core of the issue even if it's cracks some rose tinted Eco Friendly specs !

[????]

Nah, I'm a nice middleclass dad from East Dulwich now

[Acid Casual]

AllforNun Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> No stay on topic, this is what its all about,

> getting to the core of the issue even if it's

> cracks some rose tinted Eco Friendly specs !

Not sure about that, but to shatter a few myths, some of you might be amazed at what some of the guys I knew are doing now. I myself am in the creative media industry as is another of my friends, someone else is one of the best photographers in Britain, I have other friends who are accountants, civil servants, hotel managers, guest house owners and a whole lot more in between, so prejudices are only partly valid.

That said, for every one of us, there was another two complete sociopaths. Just trying to say it as it is.

Again, not to get too far off topic...

[ratty]

Totally agree with Acid Casual. One of my ex mates from the 6.57 days is a sculptor ffs. It was pretty much the norm growing up in Pompey in the late 80s to be part of the scene.

Apols for keeping this off topic. Rip the 96 ynwa!

[Keef]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I disagree with Keith on Hillsboro - I think that

the victims deserved (and still do) a proper

enquiry and some redress.

Just to be clear, I DO think there should be a new enquiry! My worry is that it won't give the answers people want, or that it just won't be enough to satisfy. I know he's not going to say I got everything wrong, but the interview with the coroner I posted earlier, offered a different view, not surrounded by hype, and didn't seem to come from a man with anything but sympathy for families and victims.

On the call for the enquiry, I agree with the campaign. My general point is different, but best left alone now probably.

[AllforNun]

Here's proper firm being contained, note how the Foreign police have the situation under control through sophisticated policing, cctv and a strong presence - this is napoli entering the main station in Rome. Think Man Utd arriving at Euston on a quiet saturday.

[Huguenot]

Are you being ironic AfN?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Have to say you have dug up another "gem" AFN...how did you know about that amazing clip?..

Wave after wave after wave of Naples Supporters, every single one of them Male, it appearred....literally thousands I should think....

Don't think I'LL be inviting them over to meet Mother for Tea and English Muffins....:(

A must see for anyone who wants to capture the "flavour" of what some English Cities had to endure in their unprepared state back in the day...

[Huguenot]

I think AfN quite likes the idea of rampaging mobs armed with steel bars. In her mind the more indiscriminately out-of-control, the better.