Hillsborough Disaster - What exactly is this Justice for the '96?

[Mick Mac]

Keef - I don't think you were wrong to start this thread at all. It has shown us that some people find it very emotitive, however I think you initial point is correct, there is no real value in pursuing this further IMO - however the emergency services involved will have ensured that Hillsborough will not happen again - and the emergency services can learn that without having to be taken to court.

Many people made hugely significant human error mistakes that day, but you can make mistakes without it being negligence.

[lard]

SimonM Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> I several times stood at the Leppings Lane of

> Hillsborough when young to watch Sheffield derby

> games. Even on crutches aged 12 (with my father) I

> stood there and had a great time. And the

> supporters weren't even segregated then.

>

> In the 70's and 80's Hillsborough was a regular

> venue for FA Cup semi finals and was always full.

> What people who attended would always tell you was

> how clueless the police were. When the disaster

> occurred the immediate reaction from people who

> had attended previous semi-finals there was a

> strong suspicion that police incompetence would be

> a major factor, and the more we learned, the more

> this suspicion became justified.

>

One aspect of Hillsborough I have often thought about is how the Leppings Lane end was really unfit for purpose anyway. I saw the year before that the central pens were crowded and some people were lifted over the barriers. I remember commenting at the time that the central pen was rammed in comparison to the outer pens. Even though terracing and overcrowding to some extent was common in those days, I still remember thinking it wasn't right.

I found this yesterday..

Spurs Wolves 1980 semi final

At 9.08 you can see fans climbing over the front gates.

What I didn't know until reading yesterday was that Hillsborough was officially unfit for semi finals (as decided by the FA) for 6 years following this 1980 semi. It was only when the pens were split that it was allowed to hold another semi final (the madness of this logic).

Overcrowding was reported at the 1987 semi final too, and also a league game against Man Utd only months earlier.

[lard]

Regarding "justice", South Yorkshire Police accepting full responsibility for the disaster would be a start.

A full apology for the lies told and the spin written would be next.

What this week has done, however, has helped to educate the general public. ie more people now understand the true causes of the disaster than previously, which is also one of the goals I believe of the Justice Campaign.

Those people commenting on whether this achieves closure, whether it is pointless or not, or any other thoughts on their motives, I am of the opinion that it is really irrelevant what you think, as you aren't the ones with the loss or grievance.

[Keef]

I guess I'd agree that the opinions of those of up unaffected are irrelevent. It is for exactly this reason that I find the whole thing a bit vulgar. People who really know nothing about this loss, screaming for justice because they want to be part of something! My initial question was simply what would be justicedns those involved? I certainly didn't intend to start a debate on the rights and wrongs.

[lard]

I suppose people join in believing they are helping the cause.

Certainly 30,000 at Anfield got it in the news, and people talking about it.

[snorky]

Keef Wrote:

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> I guess I'd agree that the opinions of those of up

> unaffected are irrelevent. It is for exactly this

> reason that I find the whole thing a bit vulgar.

> People who really know nothing about this loss,

> screaming for justice because they want to be part

> of something! My initial question was simply what

> would be justicedns those involved? I certainly

> didn't intend to start a debate on the rights and

> wrongs.

A valid point, but not one that many will accept amidst the proxy hysteria that is dredged up year after year after year

[mockney piers]

Definitely Keef and snorky.

I'd also add that the opinions of this forum don't really amount to a hill of beans for pretty much anything for the most part beyond maybe what should be put on the goose green roundabout, or doggy fence vs no fence.

Doesn't stop us discussing stuff though does it.

[jimmy two times]

I think the Police attitude at the time was formed by the regular football violence that was prevelant throughout the seventies and eighties. I also think the 1985 Heysel disaster may well have created a mindset in the Police with regards to Liverpool supporters. It possibly created the same mindset in the media at the time as well.

[mockney piers]

Sadly it created a mind set about most English among most Europeans, one that took many many years to disappear.

I had that one thrown in my face every time I went to Europe, particularly Spain until at least the mid 90s.

[jimmy two times]

And it was deserved.

[mockney piers]

Err, riiiiight, 47 million people all deserving of damnation because of the actions of football's hooligan element...okaaaaay, that's balanced.

[jimmy two times]

Probably about as balanced as suggesting most of Europe shared the same midset about most English

[Huguenot]

Hah ha, touche.

Although I reckon a larger proportion of Europeans thought all Brits were hooligans than the proportion of Brits that were hooligans.

They called me hooligan for the first six to eight months I was in China. It was really funny, I laughed and laughed.

[matthew123]

The South Yorkshire Chief Constable said on Tuesday, "Accountability has always lain with South Yorkshire Police. The Taylor report was quite clear in where blame lay. South Yorkshire Police fully accept their responsibility for the Hillsborough disaster. The force knows where it went wrong in a flawed operation and the leadership issues that led to the deaths of so many people."

The coroner officially recorded that everyone was dead or brain dead by 3.15pm that afternoon, even though there are countless witnesses who have testified that some of the dead were still fighting for the lives after this cut off time. 3.15pm is convenient for the authorities because no inquest took place to why medical attention was denied to individual victims still alive and who may have survived.

There were 25,000 Liverpool fans there that afternoon in 1989, and some were scarred more than others, families broken and hearts lost due to 96 deaths. It has left an impression, and will continue to leave an impression on generations to come. It would be a betrayal of any Liverpool supporter not to support and remember those that fell that fateful day and demand justice.

How can the individuals who denied life, as a minimum, by negligence in their duties be allowed to escape prosecution - the Hillsborough tragedy has key events that are still covered up to this day post 3.15pm and until that is overturned no Liverpool supporter should ever rest.

Initially the Police blamed fans for charging down the gates, then it was because of drunkness, then stealing from the dead.. a catalogue of lies to save their own skins that were undone by BBC cameras and CCTV. Still some like Kelvin McKenzie and Brian Clough were happy to peddle these lies for years to come.

96 families are not strong enough to take on the establishment by themselves but with the broader Liverpool 'family' who measure up in their millions this story will never rest until justice has been done.

[snorky]

matthew123 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The South Yorkshire Chief Constable said on

> Tuesday, "Accountability has always lain with

> South Yorkshire Police. The Taylor report was

> quite clear in where blame lay. South Yorkshire

> Police fully accept their responsibility for the

> Hillsborough disaster. The force knows where it

> went wrong in a flawed operation and the

> leadership issues that led to the deaths of so

> many people."

>

> The coroner officially recorded that everyone was

> dead or brain dead by 3.15pm that afternoon, even

> though there are countless witnesses who have

> testified that some of the dead were still

> fighting for the lives after this cut off time.

> 3.15pm is convenient for the authorities because

> no inquest took place to why medical attention was

> denied to individual victims still alive and who

> may have survived.

>

> There were 25,000 Liverpool fans there that

> afternoon in 1989, and some were scarred more than

> others, families broken and hearts lost due to 96

> deaths. It has left an impression, and will

> continue to leave an impression on generations to

> come. It would be a betrayal of any Liverpool

> supporter not to support and remember those that

> fell that fateful day and demand justice.

>

> How can the individuals who denied life, as a

> minimum, by negligence in their duties be allowed

> to escape prosecution - the Hillsborough tragedy

> has key events that are still covered up to this

> day post 3.15pm and until that is overturned no

> Liverpool supporter should ever rest.

>

> Initially the Police blamed fans for charging down

> the gates, then it was because of drunkness, then

> stealing from the dead.. a catalogue of lies to

> save their own skins that were undone by BBC

> cameras and CCTV. Still some like Kelvin McKenzie

> and Brian Clough were happy to peddle these lies

> for years to come.

>

> 96 families are not strong enough to take on the

> establishment by themselves but with the broader

> Liverpool 'family' who measure up in their

> millions this story will never rest until justice

> has been done.

Im sorry - but what is your point in this diversionary & muddled polemic ?

[matthew123]

Snorky that was addressed to those that are not beyond education

[mockney piers]

touche indeed ;)

Ok from my personal experience it was brought up by just about everybody I met abroad at some point. I think it's safe to say that it tainted opinion among most Europeans during that period.

[Huguenot]

I'm even more confused now, if the police have accepted responsibility then what's next?

Do you want Kelvin McKenzie and Brian Clough put in prison, or you want the doctors put in prison?

I think the criminal negligence accusation demonstrates a peculiar approach. For negligence to take place then you have to prove that the accused knew what the consequences of their inaction was, and deliberately made the choice to let those things happen.

You can do it by proving that the accused knew of the consequences, or by proving that a 'reasonable person' could see the consequences.

Either way, the supporters who pursue this case must believe that someone wanted to see Liverpool fans dead, and deliberately made a series of decisions to make this happen.

I think that's verging on crazy for this situation at Hillsborough, and it makes me question the underlying convictions of the 'millions seeking justice'. Do they really think people wanted to see them die?

[snorky]

matthew123 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Snorky that was addressed to those that are not

> beyond education

Educate me then - your unorigional C&P does nothing to clarify

[Keef]

The coroner officially recorded that everyone was dead or brain dead by 3.15pm that afternoon, even though there are countless witnesses who have testified that some of the dead were still fighting for the lives after this cut off time. 3.15pm is convenient for the authorities because no inquest took place to why medical attention was denied to individual victims still alive and who may have survived

Wrong!

The coroner recorded that deaths were caused by crush injuries, and that these injuries would have been sustained by 3:15. In many cases evidence after that time was viewed, and is in the records. This is exactly the problem, the 3:15 thing may well be a contentious issue, but the fact is that a load of fans grab hold of a headline, get it wrong, and make a big thing of it without knowing all the facts.

I am no expert either, but I don't wish to jump on a bandwagon.

There were 25,000 Liverpool fans there that afternoon in 1989, and some were scarred more than others, families broken and hearts lost due to 96 deaths. It has left an impression, and will continue to leave an impression on generations to come. It would be a betrayal of any Liverpool supporter not to support and remember those that fell that fateful day and demand justice.

And bugger those who lost people and want to let it go, and quietly remember their dead! Anyone with a hint of compassion would feel this is awful, but I don't think that to "be a red" you need to scream and shout for this justice" when you don't know what the hell it means!!!

By the way, how would you personally feel if it had been Chelsea, Arsenal, or Man U fans in there that day? I am sure you'd think it very sad, but would you still be calling for justice, or is that specifically a Liverpool thing?

I'm sorry if I am offending anyone here, but frankly I feel really really strongly about this too! I think it's just as sad as anyone else on the planet, but I find the whole thing to be in really poor taste. This should be remembered with dignity, and if the families want the truth they should fight for it (whatever it may be), but this whole "Liverpool family" thing is a fantasy, and if that means I'm not a proper Liverpool supporter, then I'm happy with that!

I'll just go back to being sad about a sad event, and watching Liverpool play football, rather than pretending I'm somehow involved in something that happened when I was 10.

[Atila Reincarnate]

While I have every sympathy for those who died on that fateful day and the ones they left behind, I am reminded of the awful events that took place at the Heysel Stadium, should we not also spare more than just a passing thought for them and theirs? And before anybody starts screaming this isn't meant as a wind up, nor isn't meant to upset or iritate, it is simply my view.

[Jah Lush]

I'm sure Juventus probably have their own service for the Heysel disaster as most of the dead were Italians. Shocking and bloody awful that both of these days were.

[Keef]

What Jah said.

I honestly didn't want to start a thread leading to hooliganism, although I guess it's inevitable, and it was part of Hillsborough simply because it was suspected, even if it wasn't happening.

Heysel was a different kettle of fish, and blame lies at the feet of the Liverpool fans who rushed the wall (as well as a shoddy wall, and posibly lack of crowd conrol). I don't think their actions on that day should be linked in any way to Hillsborough, although I'm sure they were on the mind of some of the police who were there.

It is very unfortunate that English clubs were banned from Europe, and a lot of fans of other clubs have a bit of an issue with Liverpool, to this day. However, I would suggest that it just as easily could have happened had it been any English club in that final. Basically hooliganism was rife in this country then, and thank God those days are gone (for the most part)!

[????]

Agree with what you say Keef, I think that Hillsboro' did finally stop all but the hardcore. It was so very different follwing football in those days - although Heysel had started the change but the fences were there because of the behaviour/attitude of a significant number of supporters of all teams at that time and who collectively have some cuplpability, however minor their involvement in the general culture of football in the late 70s and early 80s...I know I think about this from a personal point of view occasionally.

[Atila Reincarnate]

It is pure supposition to say that any group of English may have acted in the same manner, I think the problem people have with Liverpoool because of Heysel is what many see as a hypocritical approach, by that I mean that it is perceived that Liverpool care only for those who perished at Hillsborough but not those that lost their lives at Heysel. Again I can see that many will think this is a controversial view meant to provoke but it isn't, I've spoken to many fans of many different clubs and many people share this view.