Hillsborough Disaster - What exactly is this Justice for the '96?

[Keef]

The Hilsborough Justice Campaign website states

Twenty long years have passed since the avoidable and totally unnecessary death of 96 Liverpool fans ? and still no justice.

And my question is, what would make them rest easy, what exactly would "justce" be?

Please don't anyone think I am unsympathetic, the disaster was a terrible terrble thing, and evidence shows that it was avoidable, and big mistakes were made. But, what would make them happy?

Aims and Objectives of the Hillsborough Justice Campaign

The Hillsborough Justice Campaign was formed in response to the belief of a substantial number of people who were involved in the disaster, that after more than nine years and having many judicial decisions ruled against them, a fresh approach was needed in the fight to achieve proper Justice. The Constitution of the membership is reflected in the Group's name and it follows that the Organisation is broad-based.

1) To pursue Justice for those 96 people who died in the Hillsborough Stadium Disaster of 1989, the bereaved Families, the Survivors who came perilously close to dying in Pens 3 and 4 and those unfortunate people still suffering from the ensuing trauma of the Disaster.

(2) To recruit members to the Organisation for the purpose of raising support for the Justice Campaign

(3) To raise funds for the furtherance of the Justice Campaign

That answers nothing, again, just this call for "justice".

My concern is that they want someone to put their hand up and say "yeah, I caused that that day, and should spend the rest of my life locked up". Would that bring anyone back, or even offer real comfort? I doubt it.

I just don't get the whole thing. I get the hurt, the craving for the truth and all that, but at the end of the day, I believe it was just a bag of errors, that I am sure a lot of people feel horrifically guilty about to this day, but that could have happened at any ground any time back then.

Does this make me less of a Liverpool fan? Does this make me insensitive?

I personally don't think so. I have nothing but the greatest sympathy for everyone effected by that day 20 years ago, but I frankly think they'd be happier people if they could let it go, as I don't think even they know what it is they're really chasing after.

[Mick Mac]

I'm in agreement with that Keef - let them rest. It was an awful accident, the blame game does not help.

[snorky]

pointless

[Cassius]

Perhaps some people feel that 'justice' will give them 'closure' (awful expression), but you are so right, only by letting go will they finally find peace. Obviously that is much easier to say than to do.

[Huguenot]

Money?

[mockney piers]

I'm kind of with you Keef.

There were so many factors in to the awful events of that day, and perhaps in a perfect world there may be personal liabilities that could be identified, but it mostly seems to me they were large scale organisational mistakes.

There clearly were lessons to be learnt and changes to be made across a broad spectrum of organisations and personal behaviours and things have improved. I'd say to the point where stadiums needn't be all-seater anymore.

Often following any sort of tragedy there's a cry for answers and blame. Some of it must help the grieving process and there may be some catharsis involved also. But there isn't always someone (specifically) to blame, sadly bad things happen.

Was the Herald of Free Enterprise commercial liability or did experienced sailors just make a mistake with tragic consequences?

But I can't help feeling that the search for answers or blame can often be counter-productive, and two decades down the line nobbling a copper who misguidedly turned away an ambulance, I can't believe will do anyone any good, and as you say, it won't bring anybody back.

But thank god this has never happened again, at least not in this country.

[Annasfield]

It's not about blame. It's about "The Truth" and a cover up that blamed Liverpool fans when people who should have just put their hands up and said they got it wrong. Our fans were smeared that day and I'm sick of being called a murderer by people who believe the scummy lies that were in the press. It's atrocious.

People should read this

Why were ambulances not allowed on to the pitch? Why was there a 3.15pm cut off time for the inquest when people could have clearly been resucitated after that? A HUGE COVER UP.

I'm not going in to this today. Bad, bad timing.

[????]

I think that deaths due to Criminal Negligence should be prosecuted...it's not revenge it's justice

[Huguenot]

The one thing I've never heard is the suggestion that anyone was a murderer. Anyone.

I can see why it's impossible to discuss the situation sanely with phrases like that be bandied around.

[mockney piers]

I'm with you. When Railtrack decided that injury and death compensation was cheaper than an expensive new signalling system installed at Paddington prior to that accident thanks to the notorious signal that had been passed 8 times, then someone should have gone to prison.

I just think there's a difference between that and a tragedy due to a whole series of fuck-ups, and poor responses to it.

That should be for a court to decide however I guess, rather than my opinion or a inquiry/whitewash.

[Annasfield]

If one of your loved ones died and could have been saved, would you not want to know why?

Read Anne Williams' story about her son Kevin and don't tell me you can't empathise with her and that this whole terrible tragedy does not make you livid.

I have this book if anyone feels they should borrow and read it.

[Keef]

I think today is perfect timing but there you go, and I'm not trying to upset anyone Anna, but again, it's still not clear what the hell "justice" is.

The ambulances not being allowed on to the pitch for example, was a massive problem, no doubt, but the driver who was allowed on (who's name escapes me) said this weekend, that as he drove on, a Police Officer said to him "they're still fighting". This is not an attack on Liverpool fans specifically, you can't blame people for suspecting hooliganism back then!

As for the lies in the press, that is a seperate issue, and yes a nasty nasty one. On that front, I think a full apology even 20 years later would be some sort of Justice.

Regarding a police cover up, I am sure things were made to look like they wanted them to look like, 70s & 80s, just ask the Guildford 4. My question was quite simply, what would give peace to the people campaigning, what would satisfy them?

That's all I'm asking, I'm not trying to take a side.

As snorky said, it's very emotive, which is why it's hard to have a discussion about it.

[Huguenot]

Well that account didn't make me livid, just sad.

I can empathise with her her sorrow, if she's angry then I can't empathise with that.

I can see how he died, because of crush injuries sustained at a football match.

I can't see who the poor lady wants to attack.

[Annasfield]

She doesn't want to attack anyone. She just wants to know why nothing was done to save her son and why so many lies were told.

[Huguenot]

It seems to me lots was done to try and save her son.

What else could have been done in that environment, in that historical context, with training measures that had been put in place at that time?

Everyone learned and are still learning lessons, but they hadn't done that before that event - it took the event to teach them.

[????]

Criminal negligence

No apology...

No disciplinary action (as the original Taylor report recommended)

An inquiry by West Midlands police

Revolting lies by a national newspaper, which I regularly hear and see repeated on football forums

I can see why it still hurts all of the victims families and they don't let it go

[Keef]

I'm starting to regret starting this.

Okay, I can understand them wanting "the truth", what happened after 3:15 and all that. I still don't really see what difference it would make, but then I'm not her, or anyone else involved.

I just can't help thinking they want someone held accountable, and frankly I don't think that is fair. Imagine you were a 25 year old police officer on that day. Chaos is breaking out everywhere, people are screaming, an ambulance arrives, you don't know what to do, you send it around the corner...

20 years later, at 45, you know with hindsight, that had you let that ambulance through, a life or 2 may have been saved. I'd imagine you'd feel pretty horrible about it. Question is, do you deserve to be hauled in front of a court and punished?

[Huguenot]

I can't see that any of those would have saved her son. :'(

[snorky]

pointless

[Annasfield]

Yes Keef, people should be held accountable. Not necessarily individual police offers from that day, but those who were supposedly in control.

I wish you hadn't started this. Today is emotive enough without having to go in to things. I don't want to post in here, I don't even want to talk about it but I feel compelled to.

[Keef]

I don't know why you find this so upsetting, I can only hope it's not through personal loss. I apologise for bringing it up. It was just a genuine question that had been bugging me for days having watched and listened to many interviews, and heard stories I'd heard before.

I don't think that anyone on here thinks it's any less tragic than even the biggest Liverpool fan though.

[Keef]

This will likely be my last post on this, as I don't want to cause upset, but just thought that this video (at the top of the story) was interesting, as I'd never really heard anything from this man.

18 minute interview with Stefan Popper, the coroner.

[SimonM]

>>Annasfiedl - not sure of your age or background, but do you have any idea , first hand( not based on B&W white films etc ) >>what attending a football game was like in those days ?<<

I several times stood at the Leppings Lane of Hillsborough when young to watch Sheffield derby games. Even on crutches aged 12 (with my father) I stood there and had a great time. And the supporters weren't even segregated then.

In the 70's and 80's Hillsborough was a regular venue for FA Cup semi finals and was always full. What people who attended would always tell you was how clueless the police were. When the disaster occurred the immediate reaction from people who had attended previous semi-finals there was a strong suspicion that police incompetence would be a major factor, and the more we learned, the more this suspicion became justified.

Bradford was caused by a fire and was totally different.

I am not a Liverpool supporter but given the reactions from certain parts of the Media afterwards - in particular the indescribably loathsome outpourings from the "Sun" - I am really not at all surprised that a deep sense of injustice still lingers on Merseyside.

[JetSetWilly]

as keef asks what exactly is the justice they are after, is it to have someone held accountable and locked up, its that going to solve any issues, is it going to make anyone feel happier. are there financial motives. it perhaps time to remember those that died, but move on what happened, happened and should never be forgotten, but perhaps the biggest tribute and sign of justice for those who died, is that at least in this country it will never happen again, the recommdations of the taylor report have seen to that. i find it all comparable to the bloody sunday enquiry, both tragic events but there has to come a time when you have to move on.

[snorky]

pointless