The Duke...its a struggle

[lenk]

njc97 Wrote:

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> EOTR - really? Shame. I was reading an interview

> with the new owners (coincedentally in the Frog on

> the Green) and it sounded like they had the right

> idea, albeit it sounds like they aren't managing

> to implement it perfectly. I think they were

> always going to struggle though - the previous

> owners (also owners of the Gowlett?) served good

> food and good wines etc, but it was still always

> empty. Don't think the location can support the

> sort of pub they tried to run.

Did you read that in the freebie 'Nunhead Gazette' or whatever it's called though?

Looked like pure advertorial... [it was written in idiomatic Polish english]

they want to put the bar back where it was, make the back room less like a train station waiting room, get rid of the crap art, put the taps of 'decent' beer round the front, do pub food that isn't pizzas (the gowlett has this cornered) upmarket bangers and mash / wannabe 'gastro' nonsense (The Rye Hotel does this and they're welcome to it) - decent roast, fish and chips, fryups.

Maybe someone should put them forward for 'Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares'...

[Weegee]

I seem to remember that the EDF drinks took place there last September...is is the same place?

If so I thought food and service was very good...

[SeanMacGabhann]

yep, that's the one. Mere weeks later that manager was shown the door and it was downhill all the way after that

On another point to an earlier poster - the Gowlett sister pub is the Nun's Head a few dozen yards away. And that seems to be plenty busy any time I go in

[lenk]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> On another point to an earlier poster - the

> Gowlett sister pub is the Nun's Head a few dozen

> yards away. And that seems to be plenty busy any

> time I go in

They do football and have gastro-aspirations and a good range of beers so I guess that's why - they're also the pub of choice on that stretch if you don't fancy grumpy Irishmen (Pyrotechnists) or The Man of Kent's er, welcoming atmosphere.

[Cassius]

And nice Sunday roasts with live music.

[njc97]

Lenk - yes it was the Nunhead Gazette (or whatever it was called). Was advertorial (90% of the mag was) but under the Polinglish (Englack?) there seemed to be the right messages. But perhaps not matched by reality, given the above.

Unfortunately I don't think doing good "pub food" is going to work. The profit margins you can charge on food like that are too small to compete with the wetherspoons of the world "cooking" in microwaves. The previous owners of Duke tried and didn't last long.

[lenk]

Yeah, I did think they meant well when I read that piece..

Doing good pub food is kind of a 'loss leader' to use marketing w anker speak though.

You go in for a roast because it's amazing, you end up staying for 7 pints until closing time on a Sunday.

I'll probably go to the Gowlett for a pizza later, but drink about 5 pints while there (ignore my unit tally here)

I am aware wetherspoons do food, fortunately there's a whole different market for decent pub food - besides which, I think the nearest Wetherspoons is down near Peckham library - a bit of a trek (oh yeah, and I hate Wetherspoons pubs)

[BigPhil]

Its a shame if another small leasehold pub has gone.

unfortunatly thats happening all over

I have been doing relief management for the last year and sometimes am getting 4 -5 offers per week. ( am in my last one now before taking the Prince Albert permanantly)

I am with lenk when it comes to Witherspoons. cant stand them and consider them to be the bully boys of the pub trade. many a small pub has closed because they cant compete with witherspoons xtra low pricing.

I personally try to drink in only non chain pubs or private leaseholds. ( not sure if it helps the trade but keeps me happy)

[Sue]

Sorry, post deleted, I think I must have posted on the wrong thread, though who knows how?

:-$

[Miss Community]

Hi does anyone know what has happened to this venue. I have been there for the last 2 evenings at 4pm, waiting until 6pm for them to open (i really need to go there. Is it opened, closed?? Its quite frustrating?

[Huguenot]

The mind boggles.

You waited for two hours on the doorstep of a pub for two days running?

[vallajo]

Not sure I agree that good pub food is neccesarily a loss leader. I think more often people fail on the food side of the business because they mis-read their market. The industry is littered with examples where someone has decided to implement the kind of menu THEY want, without wondering if it can sell in that area. Trying to compete with the Gowlett on pizza is a perfect example. Why do what someone else is already doing unless either a) You're sure you can do it 10 times better, or b) There's a big enough market share to go around, like the one that supports the mass of curry places on LL.

Speaking as a ten year veteran of the London food industry, it's my feeling (and just my 2p worth) that food sales generally fail when you try to give people what they DON'T want. If you have your GP and profit margin calculations correct and enough consistent trade coming in the door then you will make money. Simple theory that's very hard to get right in practice. But if you misjudge the local market, or have inconsistent quality, or do your sums wrong or any one of a huge number of things that can screw up a kitchen budget, you'll find yourself in the red so fast it'll make your head spin. You'd be astounded by how many former stockbrokers/barristers/property developers have lost six figure sums in the restaurant trade because they had no idea how it actually works. On the flip side, I've seen totally inexperienced owners beg, borrow and scrap together just enough start up capital to open and end up making a fortune because, from the start, they understood their target market and gave it what it wanted.

That's the problem with Wetherspoons. Say what you like about them (and I can't stand them personally), but they've got to where they are by having no illusions about who they are and what they do. The McDonalds of the pub world. They don't have gastro pretensions, don't do fine wine (or even drinkable wine for that matter!), don't even have music in their pubs. But they're still in business... the bastards.

[Sue]

Miss Community Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hi does anyone know what has happened to this

> venue. I have been there for the last 2 evenings

> at 4pm, waiting until 6pm for them to open (i

> really need to go there. Is it opened, closed??

> Its quite frustrating?

xxxxxx

Eh?

[Sue]

vallajo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> > >

> That's the problem with Wetherspoons. Say what

> you like about them (and I can't stand them

> personally), but they've got to where they are by

> having no illusions about who they are and what

> they do. The McDonalds of the pub world. They

> don't have gastro pretensions, don't do fine wine

> (or even drinkable wine for that matter!), don't

> even have music in their pubs. But they're still

> in business... the bastards.

xxxxxxx

I used to run events for single people, and we had monthly meet-ups in a Wetherspoons precisely because they didn't have music, hence we could hear each other speak.

Plus at the time they had large no-smoking areas when almost every other pub in London was full of smoke.

Also they have a range of decent real ales, the wine isn't worse than most other pub wines and their prices are low.

Their food isn't great but it's cheap and edible.

And some of their pubs are based in quite interesting old buildings.

And the loos of the one we met in (Penderel's Oak in High Holburn) were in the Good Loo guide :))

I think Wetherspoons deserve to still be in business, myself!

[vallajo]

I'll agree that the Wetherspoons lot do have decent real ale sometimes (varies from pub to pub I think - could be wrong), and I do see the points about being able to hear others talk, and them being non-smoker friendly back in the day. All good things.

HOWEVER... to say the food 'isn't great' is an understatement. Cheap - yes. Edible? Well, I once took a close look at their sourcing policy (written in very small print on the menu's). It didn't feel me with joy. I've also had a sneaky glance in the kitchen of one once (yes yes, I was in a Wetherspoons!). Never seen so many deep fat fryers and microwaves. Bottom line, the food may be cheap, but I question it's nutritional value, and I question HOW they get it so cheap. I know the going rate for ingredients wholesale. Either they're simply accepting a lower GP, and making up the money by having such a big market share, or they're buying REALLY cheap food. I reckon it's the former, but sometimes I wonder...

[lenk]

vallajo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

You'd be astounded by how many former

> stockbrokers/barristers/property developers have

> lost six figure sums in the restaurant trade

In all my years in the music industry, the ex-stockbroker piling thousands into a band to fulfil that lifelong dream which then failed abysmally was always the most depressing aspect of the job..

Yeah I think the problem with the Duke is that no-one who has owned it recently has stopped for a minute to think 'what pubs are good in London?' 'Why do I like them?' 'How could that work in an area like Nunhead?'

It's not a 'destination' pub, it's a local. They should look at what makes a local a good local.

[bathsheba]

Louisa Wrote:

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> I'm not being funny, but what kind of idiot waits

> for an hour to be served food? I would have waited

> 20 minutes tops and then walked out or if I was

> that desperate for a stuipid pizza gone home and

> made one myself! Some people!

>

> Louisa.

Another bile filled response - wot a friendly place this is. (td)

[Sue]

bathsheba Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Louisa Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I'm not being funny, but what kind of idiot

> waits

> > for an hour to be served food? I would have

> waited

> > 20 minutes tops and then walked out or if I was

> > that desperate for a stuipid pizza gone home

> and

> > made one myself! Some people!

> >

> > Louisa.

>

> Another bile filled response - wot a friendly

> place this is. (td)

xxxxxxxxx

Well we're all different, and forums are full of different kinds of people who post in different ways.

Bit like life really.

Should we exclude everybody from the forum who doesn't fit in with our idea of what forum posters should be like? Would be very dull, no?

[njc97]

Vallajo - I dont think the problem here was the product. The "original" owners aimed to do decent priced, good quality pub food. 3 minutes walk away the Nuns Head is doing the same thing and seemingly making it work. And the Duke is/was never competing with the Gowlett - their expected market was presumably people who live this side of the Rye, that makes the Gowlett a bit of a walk. The problem is that I don't think there is enough of a market to sustain a gastropub round in the area (or whatever you want to call a pub that concentrates on food) and there are already enough pubs for serious drinkers. The new owners had the right idea when they put big TVs in, booked music etc but kept the food as well. But it seems there isn't enough demand at the moment for that either.

Re stockbrokers losing money, it's a case of "how do you make a small fortune in the restaurant business? Well you start with a large one....."

Weatherspoons are horrible, but as you say they give the customer what they want, and drinkswise, they do a decent product. The decor may be horrible, they may butcher some lovely buildings, and the food is functional at best, but it's all well priced and as you say, they concentrate on what people want from them, not what they want to sell.

[chrisz]

Does anyone know if the old nuns head does pizza?

Chrisz

[lenk]

chrisz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Does anyone know if the old nuns head does pizza?

>

> Chrisz

No ? it does a kind of British pub menu ? they do things with goat?s cheese and that kind of thing. It always looks nice though

[Sue]

Their chips are good!

Edited to say: Nun's Head not the Duke, though the Duke did at one point have extraordinarily good chips, at an extraordinarily high price :)

[danrees]

vallajo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Speaking as a ten year veteran of the London food

> industry, it's my feeling (and just my 2p worth)

> that food sales generally fail when you try to

> give people what they DON'T want. If you have your

> GP and profit margin calculations correct and

> enough consistent trade coming in the door then

> you will make money. Simple theory that's very

> hard to get right in practice. But if you misjudge

> the local market, or have inconsistent quality, or

> do your sums wrong or any one of a huge number of

> things that can screw up a kitchen budget, you'll

> find yourself in the red so fast it'll make your

> head spin. You'd be astounded by how many former

> stockbrokers/barristers/property developers have

> lost six figure sums in the restaurant trade

> because they had no idea how it actually works. On

> the flip side, I've seen totally inexperienced

> owners beg, borrow and scrap together just enough

> start up capital to open and end up making a

> fortune because, from the start, they understood

> their target market and gave it what it wanted.

Like Liquorish - I've said it before, and I'll say it again - who wants parsnip on a pizza? If you want pizza, chances are you want a bit of rocket, Parma ham, pepperoni or whatever. Not some weird combination a chef decides to come up with.

[SteveT]

Pubs would be more profitable if they were ran on the lines of a restaurant which also serves coffee for the ladies of leisure and beer to those who want beer.

Alcohol is no longer drunk in the same quatities and people don't go out to drink, they do go out to eat so the food is primary and the booze is a by product.

Sensible pubs would be best run by a chef, rather than a publican.

[Sue]

SteveT Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> people don't go out to drink, they do go out

> to eat

xxxxxx

Speak for yourself :))

:)-D