Consultation for the Charter School East Dulwich

[LondonMix]

brezzo Wrote:

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> LondonMix, the Charter's postcode is SE21 and its

> next to North Dulwich station. Definitely not

> Herne Hill which is SE24.

The postcode is SE24 (Herne Hill)

Red Post Hill, London SE24 9JH to be exact...

[brezzo]

I stand corrected LondonMix, will now have to say my children attend school in Herne Hill. Might also campaign for North Dulwich station to be renamed, Herne Hill East.

[landsberger]

simonethebeaver Wrote:

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> I've noticed that the proposed admissions criteria

> unusually puts children with an EHC and

> social/medical needs below siblings. I've heard

> about some remarks made last night about this

> that, as the parent of a child with SEN, I find

> worrying, but obviously I wasn't there. Can

> someone clarify whether Charter explained the

> reasoning behind the priority order?

This is highly unusual, but perhaps not as serious as at first glance. Firstly, there will be no siblings in the first round of admissions. Secondly, I have never known a secondary school fill up with siblings and medical/social etc etc. It's distance that fills the schools up. However, it doesn't send a good signal, and is out of step with almost all other schools in the borough ("real" Charter included!). Let them know your thoughts!

[littlek1cker]

colabottle Wrote:

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> Simon/littlek1cker, could you please clarify a

> catchment question for me? Is it possible to say,

> from the intake for September 2015, what was the

> further distance offered from the current Charter,

> Red Post Hill, to a child who did not fall into

> either a sibling, cared for/looked after or

> SEN/EHC category? It would be really helpful to

> know, as the anecdotal information about furthest

> distance doesn't seem to tally with the 1100

> metres that I think has been cited by Charter, and

> I'm wondering whether that 1100 metre place might

> have been offered to a sibling for example?

Hi colabottle, I will try to find this out.

[littlek1cker]

Just a reminder that our second public consultation event is taking place tomorrow night 7pm to 9pm at the Albrighton Centre, Albrighton Road, Dog Kennel Hill Estate, SE22 8AH. If you want to hear the latest news about the new school and/or have views about the school you want to express as part of our consultation please do come along.

Whether you can make it or not, please also fill in our online questionnaire: [www.surveymonkey.com]

I hope to see as many of you there as possible.

[colabottle]

Hi Simon,

Have you been able to get the admissions distance figure yet? I think it is important information to be considered as part of your consultation.

Thank you

[landsberger]

Won't this depend on the number, geography and demography of applicants and the number of places offered ? There will be no absolute distance.

colabottle Wrote:

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> Hi Simon,

>

> Have you been able to get the admissions distance

> figure yet? I think it is important information

> to be considered as part of your consultation.

>

> Thank you

[LondonMix]

Agreed.

[confusedbyitall]

I think cola is referring to last years intake for charter 1.

[LondonMix]

I know but that isn't an indication of Charter 2's catchment will be or how much overlap will exist between the two schools. It more complex than that.

[colabottle]

Londonmix, I agree that it is undoubtedly more complex than that, but without any other hard data or way of evaluating an unknown entity, knowing the furthest distance (place offered at Charter 1 exc siblings, SEN and cared for entrants) will at least act as a guide. The schools are situated so close to each other, in neighbouring residential areas, that it seems logical that the demands on the schools will be largely similar and therefore lead to a similar catchment size.

[landsberger]

Remember Charter 2's admissions policies are different to Charter 1's. They haven't announced where they will be situated permanently or temporarily (the DH site is big). They haven't announced whether they are opening in one go, and whether then school will be on the existing Charter site before moving onto the new one. And, remember, they and not the council are responsible for the admissions. The council just co-ordinates them to stop schools picking children or some children getting more than one offer. So distance is probably mostly irrelevant in this case until the previous points are clearer.

[colabottle]

That's seems like quite a lot of unknowns for a school at this stage of the process. I hadn't realised there was so little certainty. I hope they can provide some clarity within the consultation time-frame.

[confusedbyitall]

Actually landsberger they have announced where they will be permanently, we have always known that for the first two years the site would be a temporary one - wherever that is.

The admissions criteria is only different in that they intend to use as the crow flies, not walking.

The nodal point is the most important thing that this community needs to know, as we all know that in five or six years the catchment will shrink substantially....that's why its important to know what it currently is now on charter 1's site.

If its 200meteres or 1km we then also have an idea of how much overlapping there will be on the jervis rd nodal.

[landsberger]

confusedbyitall - I know the general area where they will be (Dulwich Hospital site) but where the school will be on this particular site is important - it could affect people's ability to get in. The admissions criteria puts siblings above medicals, which is highly unusual (I hope it's a mistake). And how many will be there in the first year. Some are saying 240, some are saying only 120, who is right ?

[LondonMix]

Why should the catchments shrink dramatically?

Locally circa 240 new primary school places have been created to deal with increased primary place demand in Dulwich, Peckahm, Nunhead. The new Charter school will admit 240 pupils exactly so should be able to satisfy the primary pupil surge.

On AVERAGE, mathematically, the size of the catchment of local schools won?t change from what they are now.

Obviously the size of each school?s catchment will be a factor of how popular it is and the exact geographical spread of secondary school pupils in the local area.

If both Charter schools are equally as popular as each other (who knows) the corresponding mathematical result is that any overlap caused by their relative proximity will expand both of their catchments further East and West than would otherwise be the case.

Again, I?m not sure why everyone is convinced a nodal point is needed and which local children they fell are unlikely to gain admission to the school without one.

You can't really guarantee anything come what may. If Charter East Dulwich is wildly popular, parents with secondary school age students will cluster more densely around it distorting its average catchment size anyway.

confusedbyitall Wrote:

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> Actually landsberger they have announced where

> they will be permanently, we have always known

> that for the first two years the site would be a

> temporary one - wherever that is.

>

> The admissions criteria is only different in that

> they intend to use as the crow flies, not

> walking.

>

> The nodal point is the most important thing that

> this community needs to know, as we all know that

> in five or six years the catchment will shrink

> substantially....that's why its important to know

> what it currently is now on charter 1's site.

>

> If its 200meteres or 1km we then also have an idea

> of how much overlapping there will be on the

> jervis rd nodal.

[confusedbyitall]

I'm talking about the new schools catchment shrinking after a few years...it will be wide for at least two years but shrink each year after that as buildings are finished and siblings join...probably!!!!!!

The point of the new school being built was for kids in ED and the massive black hole where families have no real choice....Bellenden area/Peckham rye etc

The returns of the consultation papers shall speak - as have the parents at the meetings - have you been - heard what parents actually are saying/wanting??

[LondonMix]

Yes, I am aware. What I don't understand why people in Peckham rye and SE22 feel they won't get in based on distance. Also I'm not sure where people think the nodal point should be and why.

[MsMaz]

LondonMix - if the current Charter stretches to, say, only 1km (I know of kids quite far down on waiting list this year who are less than a kilometre) and the new Charter only stretches to approx 1km, then it would only go as far as Barry Road - (look on Freemaptools to see) the rest of East Dulwich south/east of Barry Road and around Peckham Rye Park would not get in, neither would anyone down Camberwell Grove, Lyndhurst Grove, way, etc either. Although 240 places is a lot, that's only 4 schools' worth - 5 schools are close - DKH, Goose Green, St Johns, Bessemer Grange and Heber are currently closest so if most opted for the new Charter, few kids in schools beyond those would get in. I'm not saying they should, but I think that's what the reality will be, and in 4-5 years there will be Belham and Harris Academy ED in the mix so I expect it will be a very small, densely-packed catchment by then.

I think people are asking for a nodal point/s so that there is no overlap with current Charter catchment, which makes sense to me. It does seem ridiculous that families will be able to choose from both Charters and this could make the catchment not stretch as far to Bellenden, P Rye and East Dulwich as hoped, and instead stretch the first Charter catchment to take in even more from Herne Hill/Brixton area.

Obviously everyone will be wanting the nodal point as near to them. I personally don't get why they have put it most 'northern' point as I would have the thought going as east as possible would be best.

[LondonMix]

When I counted the 240 new primary places, I was including Belham, the new Harris ED, the expansion of Ivydale etc. I will send the link to Southwark's pupil planning tonight so you can seen this is all factored in already regarding new primary pupils.

Also, I still don?t understand the nodal point for a few reasons:

1. Any overlap between the two schools if they independently would have a catchment of 1km (putting all assumptions regarding preference, geographic distribution of secondary school pupils etc aside) will expand the furthest offer out both schools offer beyond 1 km. The impact of their proximity cannot be analysed in a vacuum.

2. 1km catchment for the new Charter School would include large parts of Peckham Rye and East Dulwich. However, if the catchment is that small, there isn?t actually a nodal point that would cover all of East Dulwich and all of Peckham Rye.

3. If the catchment is closer to 1.6km which is what Charter has previously indicated is their historic norm based on safe walking distance, then the current hospital location will cover all of SE22 and all of Peckham Rye etc.

If the concern is that catchment of Charter ED will be small, where do those asking for a nodal point think it should go? Which areas do they want to exclude and on what basis?

[littlek1cker]

colabottle Wrote:

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> Hi Simon,

>

> Have you been able to get the admissions distance

> figure yet? I think it is important information

> to be considered as part of your consultation.

>

> Thank you

I haven't got an answer for you yet, but I am on the case. This is a really busy time for admissions staff at The Charter School as appeals are being heard this week, so bear with me.

[littlek1cker]

Hi all,

Just to clarify a few things that have come up on this thread: We intend to open on the Dulwich Hospital site as our permanent site. We expect to have the whole of the site except for the South East corner, which is being retained by the NHS for a community health centre. Exactly where our buildings are on the site makes no difference to the admissions policy. Our proposed admissions policy, which we are currently consulting on, is to measure distance in a straight line from the child's house to the end of Jarvis Road, which is near the North East corner of the whole site and the furthest East that we can put it without going off our site.

We plan to admit 240 pupils per year. This is bigger that the current Charter School, which admits 180 per year. This means that, all other things being equal, our catchment area will be bigger.

Where there is still some uncertainty is with regard to temporary accommodation for our pupils whilst we are building our permanent accommodation. Since we can't finish all the building work before we admit the first pupils we will need to have temporary accommodation. We are very actively exploring the options for this. The temporary accommodation may be on the hospital site or it may have to be off site somewhere else locally. Until we know what this temporary accommodation is going to be, we can't be absolutely certain that we will admit 240 pupils in the first year or two. If the temporary accommodation isn't big enough for this, we may have to consider reducing the intake in the first year (or so). We don't want to do this and will only do it if the alternative is to delay our opening, and we are absolutely committed to opening in 2016. Regardless of where the temporary accommodation is, we are proposing to measure distance to the end of Jarvis Road for the purposes of admissions.

I hope this is helpful. I'm told that the uncertainty we have regarding the site is fairly typical for a free school at this stage in its development. We are extremely lucky, of course, that we will eventually have a beautiful, iconic building supplemented with purpose built space for our school.

[simonethebeaver]

Thank you, Simon. Have you had a chance to find out the rationale behind the unusual admissions criteria prioritisation yet?

[kristymac1]

Simon I'm interested to know why Jarvis Road has been selected as the appropriate point from which to measure admissions.

Thanks

[Belle]

I think perhaps there is an assumption that families over to the East have the Harris boys/girls option. There is also therefore an assumption that those families are happy with single sex education, which the secondary school campaign illustrates is clearly not the case. Even for those families happy with single sex, if they have girls, their chances (if local) at Harris Girls just got a lot slimmer given it's gone two thirds lottery.

Also worth remembering that though the effects of the bulge years are yet to come, secondary applications are by no means straightforward currently - there are plenty of posts here and elsewhere that speak of people being given schools far away/being very far down waiting lists for Charter etc despite living in the community. Basically, the crisis has already started, so simply matching 240 secondary places to 240 primary places is probably not a fair way of looking at it.