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Right, I never studied economics at school. I didn't understand about the free market and competition.


And then many years later, under a labour government, I got a job which was all about making markets work. The most efficient way to supply goods and services (which is the definition of economics) is healthy competition, choice and good information. Yay I got it. Regulation and protectionism was bad and was the last resort. OK so the banking crisis showed the flaws but I still sort of get it.


So why, with a Tory establishment, where we have a Tory mayor, he protects the cabbies, in part through regulation. Why do they have disproportionate influence. Whilst swathes of the eonomy were sacrificed when it was considered that this was not in the public's interests. Yet bally black cabs?


They are polluting. They are inefficient. The market is inefficient. There are barriers to entry (the knowledge and restrictions on the number of plates). There is no direct price competition. Their rates are set favourably. They drive around much of the day looking for business, wasting fuel and polluting the air. They sit in ranks, wasting more fuel and polluting because the few clients they have prove very lucrative. They phone-in daytime chat programmes to give their bigoted views. Their professional association spouts nonsense about cyclists, Uber, Boris Johnson (funny he appears to be their savour) and the mag seems to be written by Richard Littlejohn (not celebrating the good, but criticising the rest of the world).


So we have mini cabs, lightly regulated and yay providing competition. And we have Uber, yay, more competition. And now I hear my Big Job (BJ) himself wants to cut minicab numbers. Why? Please enlighten me dear reader.

Cabbies hated Ken for what they saw as a gradual erosion of their privileges enshrined in various bits of 19th century law.


Many of them backed BJ to kick Ken out but now feel betrayed by BJs failure to protect them from what they see as threats from everything from Uber meters to Addison Lee using bus lanes. But BJ knows they're a powerful voice that will help his cause in office so he's basically walking a tightrope between keeping their favour and allowing inevitable change in the operating model caused by disruptive technology.


London needs a trusted regulated taxi service like any other major developed city. Black cab drivers are some of the most qualified drivers in the world....but it's a model that will die when you have less qualified l Romanian drivers willing to work for less whilst using powerful Goldman Sachs funded technology to source work.


Make them less polluting and more efficient for sure but I think London's black cabs need to be protected....they're trusted and part of the cities brand and heritage...and that has a whole lot of intangible value attached.

Having just returned from NY where the cabbies haven't a clue where they are going, have no sat nav and are seemingly unable to follow a map / directions, I think the Knowledge and black cabs are fantastic and should be preserved.


I agree they should be more environmentally friendly, but the knowledge should remain.

miga Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------


> That is a really interesting question, and you could similarly ask about other protected

> businesses and industries. Other examples include farmers in the US, banks everywhere, landlords

> here etc. It's not very ideologically consistent.


Landlords?

MrBen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> London needs a trusted regulated taxi service like

> any other major developed city. Black cab drivers

> are some of the most qualified drivers in the

> world...


Minicab (so Uber/Addisson Lee) drivers are licensed, right? And there is a record of who's car you've been in and when. They have sat navs so know where they're going (unlike black cab drivers, anywhere out of central London).


I would suggest that they are safer, more convenient, and more efficient than black cabs.


Traditional black cabs are for tourists as far as I'm concerned.

A friend was a black cab driver, and recently retired. He had to have a medical before his licence was renewed, proof that he was insured, police checked, references chased. He hired his cab which was regularly maintained. Trade was variable and he could not guarantee his weekly income.


Also known mini cab drivers - some do this as they cannot find work elsewhere, some take you a roundabout way to your destination to get additional fares. Some of the cars are poorly maintained. A colleague's hubby is a mini cab driver - he gave up being a chef when they had kids - he looked after the children during the day when she worked and in the evenings worked from around 6 pm - 1 am 6 days a week. We need a combination of both cabbies and mini cabs.

Good posts but missed one of my main points.


They spend much of the day idle. When they have a punter it must be pretty lucrative.


If this was any other area of business it would have gone bust.


I use a black cab about once every five years. Perhaps a mini cab once or twice a year. The latter is more comfortable and half of the price. I have plenty of choice of reputable companies in the area.


We shouldn't have a delivery system by design, the market should provide. Sparkies and gas fitters are qualified and registered up to their eyeballs due to the safety implications. You don's see groups of electricians parked up waiting for business they are out doing work. If they charge too much someone will undercut them ie competitive forces.

Black cab drivers have to study extremely hard..often for years to get a license and its not a cheap process !!

They are scrupulously vetted over there past,ie..no one with a criminal record is likely to be taken on to train.Unlike mini cabs where it seems anyone can just become a driver in any old car..i personally would choose a black cab over a mini cab anyday...if for no other reason than safety.


As for only taking cash..this is due to the cost of the card readers..

Jeremy Wrote:

---------------------------------------------------

>

> Minicab (so Uber/Addisson Lee) drivers are

> licensed, right? And there is a record of who's

> car you've been in and when. They have sat navs so

> know where they're going (unlike black cab

> drivers, anywhere out of central London).

>

> I would suggest that they are safer, more

> convenient, and more efficient than black cabs.

>

> Traditional black cabs are for tourists as far as

> I'm concerned.


Spot the non cab user. :-)


The skill most central black cabbies have to find alternative routes, know the rhythmn of traffic patterns throughout the day and help a whole load of people from tourists to wheelchair users to drunk single females can't be knocked.


And you think sat navs are always right on the best route?


There's lots cabbies need to do to run with the times but the test for me is which would I rather my missus took home late at night.

You'd choose a black cab for safety reasons? Even though if you take, for example, Addisson Lee, there is a record of who picked you up and when? I don't think black cabs are safer at all. As we all know.. perfectly possible for black cab drivers to turn out to be highly unpleasant or dangerous individuals.


MrBen - why would you assume I don't use taxis?

I'm assuming that because your experience amd description of black cab drivers doesn't tally with the 150 odd rides I did in the last year or so so..and sorry but 3 years of hard training and thorough vetting of drivers can't be compared with the cornflake packet minicab licences handed out by TFL.

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> MrBen Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > London needs a trusted regulated taxi service

> like

> > any other major developed city. Black cab

> drivers

> > are some of the most qualified drivers in the

> > world...

>

> Minicab (so Uber/Addisson Lee) drivers are

> licensed, right? And there is a record of who's

> car you've been in and when. They have sat navs so

> know where they're going (unlike black cab

> drivers, anywhere out of central London).

>

> I would suggest that they are safer, more

> convenient, and more efficient than black cabs.

>

> Traditional black cabs are for tourists as far as

> I'm concerned


In what way are mini cabs safer than black cabs? The standards black cab drivers have to meet far exceed those of mini cabs.


I don't get the convenience point either - if I am leaving work late at night I can usually pick up a black cab on the street in a few minutes where Addison Lee suggest booking twenty minutes in advance.


As for the sat navs, I've only had a black cab get lost once when they confused west and east dulwich (and have used a lot), and when they realised they asked what the usual fare was and charged me that instead.


I'd always choose a black cab over a mini cab other than for airport drops, where airport direct do a great job.

I use all the above. Maybe 3-4 times I month a get a black cab in to town or City Airport in the morning rush hour (via Hailo). Why? Quickest as can use bus lanes.


Once a week I'll get an Uber back from drinking in town. Why? Cheapest and time isn't an issue, although I'm usually in a car within five minutes of ordering one.


Once a month or so I'll get a minicab to Gatwick. Why? Cheapest and traffic not so much of an issue.


So for me they can all co exist as they offer different benefits but the one in peril is the black cab. Yes they do the knowledge but that's no longer a real competitive advantage, my phone can do that and has access to the traffic flows as well..


You get any cabbie on this and they'll complain it's unfair competition but it's not, it's just a changing world and they have to offer something to justify their fee and all they have at the moment is the use of bus lanes, and the ability to be flagged down. Given you're never more than five minutes from an Uber (in town) that latter is disappearing as an advantage, so they defend their right to use bus lanes to the death. Seems to me they need to find some other advantage or their days are numbered.


To go back to the question of quite how come their views have such influence... I don't know. Seems daft to me.


I should point out I am a man and I appreciate the security aspect may make a woman potentially travelling alone view this market differently.

Black cabs in central London are great - particularly if you're in a group wearing heels and where you are going isn't handy for a Tube stop. Side roads, missing jams, all great.


Out of London, the Knowledge tends to be a bit more sparse. Last one I hailed here was just after I missed a bus and had to get to Brixton to get a Tube to airport with a heavy case. He took me a ridiculous route which ad heavy traffic rather than any side route - despite knowing I was in a hurry and disregarding suggestions I made - I cycle there most days and know a few quieter ones. I ended up getting out at the Ritzy because he had got confused and running down road to station to find the next bus there. So it cost me ?20 and saved me no time. Never again.


As a cyclist, I hate their tendency to pull over with complete disregard for cyclists and others. Saw one yesterday stopped on a corner at Vauxhall Bridge causing havoc with traffic and pedestrian crossings. And I'd prefer them not being in bus lanes unless to make a pick up/drop off on pavement there. With no/one passenger why should they get the time benefits that public transport gets?

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