new video footage shows police assaulting Tomlinson from behind

[antijen]

MP It doesnt make a diffrence to me, I'm sure if enough evidence is given to prove the actions described above I'm sure they would bring intelligence in to it, I don't know what you mean by counter productive but to me it stands linked. Qualitative? Don't get it. The diffrence between the former and latter, not a big difference for me.

[mockney piers]

You don't see the difference between hanging around a meeting of radicals to find out what they're planning, and knots of plain clothes police throwing bottles at uniformed officers?

Weird.

[snorky]

The filth are knee deep in infilitration - the ALF action section is about 1/3 filth or filth recruits - a discreet little meet in a country pub finds undercover coppers discussing plans for a lab raid with other undercover coppers - the question needs to be asked - how much do these undercover coppers contribuite or insigate the resultant actions initially ?

During the 1970's the Halewood Ford plant in Scouseland had a union commitee that consisted entirely of Special branch informers - all unknown to each other - they used to all meet and discuss strike proposed action, agree a plan, then all scuttle off back to their SB contacts with the same information.

In terms of AP, Wapping & the MIners strikes were both proving grounds for copper AP, as were the poll tax riots.

If the ED cop shop was a centre for Police corription, violence and wholsale drug dealing for a decade, then why do people think that AP is a crime too far for the Met ?

[mockney piers]

Because corruption and abuse is one thing, AP is policy.

When I was growing up I had a sort of mentor type figure who was an ALF activist; hero-worship him as I did at the time, on reflection i'm frankly glad they're infiltrated, nutters the lot of them ;-P

Pretty well known that the IRA was made up of a surprisingly large degree of informants, the army council knew they were utterly compromised, one of the reasons why they came to the negotiating table, but to my knowledge* MI5 agents didn't actually blow up any soldiers or shoot any policemen.

*and we may have to wait another 40 odd years to find out

[AllforNun]

..........not really they were met equally at the negotiating table because a Chinnock went down in bad weather in scotland wiping out the ENTIRE British top team in absolutely every area in one fell swoop. It would have taken 20+ years for the government to replace that kind of experience, time was running out because the city of london needed to expand and needed guarantees. Some of the guys on board were running top top level informers that even parts of the government did not know about.

[mockney piers]

I honestly have no idea how influential the effects of that crash may have been in the end game, but seeing as that was '94 and negotiations started in the 70s I'm thinking it was unlikely to be a causal factor in bringing anyone to the table.

[AllforNun]

mmmm negotiations under Thatcher ! give me a break...or two !

[mockney piers]

Of course there were, you think they all suddenly miraculously just managed useful dialogue the second she left?

It wasn't minister level of course, but it was sanctioned from on high.

The difference between pragmatism and rhetoric, soundbites for the Daily Mail do not a coherent government policy make, though I sometimes wonder these days....

[antijen]

mockney piers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You don't see the difference between hanging

> around a meeting of radicals to find out what

> they're planning, and knots of plain clothes

> police throwing bottles at uniformed officers?

>

> Weird.

You don;t see that infiltrators would behave in a way they believe radicals behave or are you saying you can only expect that in meetings. Who's to say they aren't part of a group they've already infiltrated maybe even started.

[mockney piers]

Well if that was the case I'm guessing that flashing their id to get through police lines may have blown their cover. This was just pure incitement to violence which is a crime. Heads will roll for this as the agrieved MP has a fair old bit of clout as he's on the home affairs select committee

[Brendan]

There?s a difference between gratuitous dreadlock wearing, spouting socialist slogans in order to fit in and blatantly dangerous and illegal behaviour like violence against police officers.

There are just so many angles of ?wrong? there I don?t even know where to start.

[antijen]

So Brendan does that mean if infiltrating a drug organisation, they won't break the law having a joint or a line of whatever. Or are you finding it hard to believe that our goverment or secret sections within it would be outside the law unless caught blatently red handed.

[mockney piers]

Oh come on. All my police friends skin up off their own backs (tricky skill but possible). If they were asked to perform a hit to stay in cover I doubt that would happen.

You're missing my point that these obviously weren't under cover but simply there to agitate.....crime!!!

[Santerme]

AllforNun Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> mmmm negotiations under Thatcher ! give me a

> break...or two !

There were continual contacts with the IRA throughout the Thatcher era, usually via MI5.

Robert McLarnon springs to mind and this was continued in the Major administration by Peter Brook, I seem to recall.

[SeanMacGabhann]

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* drums fingers *