new video footage shows police assaulting Tomlinson from behind

[AllforNun]

"The Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) tried to secure a court order preventing Channel 4 News showing the film of the G20 protests." ......but failed. 24th April.

Wow it's almost as if someone did not want any footage, strange when we have so many independent and world class media outlets and a city bristling with cameras that 2months on ITN only manage to get hold of a small clip from somewhere.

Obviously just conspiracy , no evidence to support that, the cameras and the nations media were obviously busy covering something else of importance !!!!!!!!

[Huguenot]

Quite AfN, good to have you onside for a change.

It may surprise, but justice isn't played out to the mob.

I don't think justice was about to be identified in this situation if the incriminated party was being asked to incriminate themselves (part of our legal system), but the involvement of the public and media has demonstrated the depths and strength of our society. We're not in the same state as we were thirty years ago, and it's something to be proud of.

The policeman won't be subject to the judgment of fundamentalists from Nunhead, who'll come to conclusions by watching telly, and then march the streets with pitchforks and slaughter the accused, his family and friends.

That's also something to be proud of.

I think that society's request for an independent jury must be predicated on the fact that they haven't made up their minds before they enter the court. They should hear and view the evidence and make up their minds at that time.

I can understand that the prosecuting lawyers would be concerned that existing TV footage would prejudice that situation.

Essentially AfN, it means that too much coverage will prevent justice. Something I'm sure you're keen to avoid.

[AllforNun]

What no fish this time, or do have to wait till nxt week Guardian weekend to get your facts from !

I don't have TV - steal all my gear from the net. It's all free you know - Ricky Hatton hear i come !

MURDERERS - see another one has jumped.

[mockney piers]

How very odd. I find myself vaguely aligned with AFN. Never thought I'd see the day, but nice to see you sounding and writing like a rational human being too ;-)

I would disagree with you in that GLobalism is actually driven by Imperialism, not Capitalism. Governments have all the power, the banks and corporations are tolerated only as long as their goals continue to coincide with governments'.

Hence why globalism has been pushed through on national agendas by governments. Should this relationship break down watch how the legislative and particularly the executive demonstrate who has the real power.

I fear you may have been reading too much Philip Bobbit; interesting though he is I think he's utterly wrong, the nation state has some legs in it yet.

Ooh, and not sure about this erosion of borders. Globalism does try to get rid of barriers to trade, but it's rather one sided and basically just a more sophisticated version of the old 'open door' policy, the US's first bash at imperialism in China. Borders for people haven't really disappeared anywhere else, you try going to the US or Russia if you think this the case, it really ain't that easy.

The one place we've seen it go is within Europe and I'd say that it was primarily driven by idealism, though I'm not naive enough to believe that movement of capital wasn't a big driver, I don't for a second connect it with globalism as it has actually cost the rich a fortune to the benefit of the poor, ask the Portuguese, Greek, Spanish or Irish.

[Brendan]

mockney piers Wrote:

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> Governments have all the power, the banks and

> corporations are tolerated only as long as their

> goals continue to coincide with governments'.

Call me paranoid but I often think it may be the other way around.

[mockney piers]

Thing is these days both are nebulous organisations and it's genuinely difficult to tease them apart, just look at the roles TB has these days.

Both are pretty much at the mercy of the other and it's fascinating to read early modern history in that light, but it's always the man with the gun who has the final say, and as someone pointed out the other day, Russia defaulted on its debt and it didn't actually end up doing all that much harm in the long term did it.

[AllforNun]

No Imperialism it ain't - that was last year

It's all driven by capital, and the removal of borders is as much a pshycological issue as a concrete one, huge migrant work forces, open borders for trade. And of course the nation state has legs.

Try Empire - Negri or Joxe - Empire of Disorder.

Anyway Boris Dehumanised the protesters in his Telegraph article because he is flippant, stupid boy from Eton, And this is the conservative party at its core - Don't forget.

Elements in the Police went to town via this green light and no doubt flippant comments Boris made to Met Executive behind closed doors. He should to learn what happens if you are responsible and complicit in the death of an innocent man and then drape yourself over the front of Time Out with a grin and a union jack round your shoulders a few weeks later. You don't needs books for this just bricks.

[mockney piers]

of course it's imperialism, just dressed up a bit differently for public consumption. People like to think we're nice, but we're basically imperialist states, we just use different tools and call it different names.

[AllforNun]

the reason why it's not quite imperialism is that it suggest's a state has control over global capital, this is no longer the truth, capitalism has outgrown the limitations of any singular state. America has 'used' capitalism as a strategic twin to it's military dominance, however under the light of history this will appear only a fleeting singular partnership.

[mockney piers]

fine fine, needs a new name then, and if by fleeting you mean another 50 years, then yeeesss...perhaps.

Global trends and realpolitik suggest an auturchical clash in the far east sometime in the next 50 years.

I'm hoping we've moved beyond turning each other into meat as a means to an end, but not so sure humanity has got there yet.

[Huguenot]

The challenge is that both of you are interpreting the course of events through intelligent design.

It makes rash assumptions about both the capability of politicians, and the capacity of the infrastructure to carry out those wishes.

I'd argue that there is neither the capability nor the wit at senior political levels to do anything other that what the grand mass of population would like to see done.

The outcries over the financial debacle, like the Iraq war, and like Princess Diana before it were the flagellant flappings of culpable guilt. To be Imperialist you need a population that is acquisitive, racist and jingoist.

[AllforNun]

Capitalism makes no other grand assumption than that of human survival and dominace over others

[Huguenot]

Neither does any other political discipline.

I'm afraid that there's just as vigorous a craving for domination in the violent solutions that you advertise AfN.

All the talk of class war and brick throwing has nothing to do with freeing the proletariat, and everything with the ascendancy of your own mob.

Frankly Stalin didn't have a great rep, and it wasn't him who created in the environment in which he flourished.

The tragedy will be your broken heart as the gang that you elevate toss you to one side once you've put them on a pedestal. At that point, you'll think Nunhead in 2009 wasn't such a bad place to be.

[AllforNun]

i am sure your definition of political discipline is very narrow, dusty and out of date !

And Nunhead is a great place to live whatever the year, thank you very much.

[AllforNun]

every week a drop more........take the sting out of it.....straight from the spin handbook

Apparently the police had plain clothed police inside the cordon who were seen throwing bottles at police lines and aggitating the crowd, when they were challenged they ducked through the cordon by flashing police badges !

stunned - even worse they were pointed out too and spotted by a liberal MP (who was also trapped inside the cordon) and who only now chooses to mention it....maybe they, the met, threatened to reveal his expenses.

what the hell is going on with these people.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/10/g20-policing-agent-provacateurs

[mockney piers]

Genuinely shocking if that turns out to be true!! That's properly fucked up.

[snorky]

AllforNun Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> every week a drop more........take the sting out

> of it.....straight from the spin handbook

>

> Apparently the police had plain clothed police

> inside the cordon who were seen throwing bottles

> at police lines and aggitating the crowd, when

> they were challenged they ducked through the

> cordon by flashing police badges !

>

> stunned - even worse they were pointed out too and

> spotted by a liberal MP (who was also trapped

> inside the cordon) and who only now chooses to

> mention it....maybe they, the met, threatened to

> reveal his expenses.

>

> what the hell is going on with these people.

>

> http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/may/10/g20

> -policing-agent-provacateurs

an awful paper BUT this , if true, is hardly a surprise innit ?

[mockney piers]

Really, I'm genuinely surprised. I assumed the police could be thugs, I assumed they make mistakes and try to cover them up, but this is a level of cynicism I didn't think they were capable of.

[snorky]

mockney piers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Really, I'm genuinely surprised. I assumed the

> police could be thugs, I assumed they make

> mistakes and try to cover them up, but this is a

> level of cynicism I didn't think they were capable

> of.

Mr Piers - the coppers have been doing this from the time of Peel - Miners strike/Poll tax riots/ Animal Liberation demos ( their particular favorite I may add, because they are the only organised indigenous group considered a terrorist threat = potential for lots of aggro ). The SB love it

I'm not saying this as any kind of ant police plastic agitation stance - this is well know amongst fringe groups and demos

[snorky]

heres a bit of C&P

"AGENT PROVOCATEURS

Traditionally British law enforcement has distained the use of agent provocateurs, regarding such tactics as being counterproductive to matters of public disorders. There used to be an understanding that a tactic would be an incitement?a potential criminal offence.

Unfortunately the active role of agent provocateurs by the London metropolitan police service has recently been exposed. On 21 June 2008 the Daily Mail carried a report which clearly showed a serving police inspector acting as an agent provocateur during the London demonstration against the visit of President George Bush. The MP George Galloway later identified the police inspector as Chris Dreyfus and laid a formal complaint.

This raises grave concerns. Does the involvement of a senior officer indicate that this regrettable tactic is more widespread? The answer to that question is unfortunately) yes.

I refer the committee to the Channel 4 documentary of the 1990 poll tax riots. Footage transmitted by that programme clearly showed policemen, removing uniforms and dressing as anti-violence stewards, then disembarking from a metropolitan police minibus. It has been claimed that a number of those "stewards" then encouraged members of the crowd into acts of violent disorder.

It is a matter of record, that the metropolitan police took legal action against the television production company, so as to try to obtain the video-master tapes of this programme?and prevent its transmission.

Of the 400 arrested during the disturbance that day, most were acquitted due to poor evidence gathering and alleged incitement by plainclothes members of the metropolitan police.

I believe that the metropolitan police currently make use of agent provocateurs.

The existence or usage of agent provocateurs is a clear breach of public trust and contrary to the interests of public order.

I therefore suggest that the committee give consideration to making this tactic an inchoate criminal offence. For example "while on-duty in plain clothes, it will be unlawful for a serving police officer to incite or cause an act of public unrest by a crowd, or assembly"."

From a parliamentary memo : http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.com/pa/jt200809/jtselect/jtrights/47/47we12.htm

[mockney piers]

Cheers.

I thought I was jaded and hard to surprise. Leaves me feeling ever so slightly ambivalent about this ;)

[snorky]

My work here is done

[antijen]

I thought it was common knowledge that the goverment will infiltrate any group who are a force to be reckoned with. Documentary done a couple of years ago, Tony Benn was told someone close to him was on the other side, his reaction was he would have been surprised if there wasn't someone.

[SeanMacGabhann]

About 3 or 4 weeks back i wrote

"Re: JetSetWilly's earlier assertion that the police will be shown in a more positive light in time re: Tomlinson

It's not looking that way yet, and getting worse day by day "

And I'm still waiting for JSW's predictions.. or even a response from the man himself - does he still think that?

[mockney piers]

Antijen. I'm pretty sure there's a qualitative difference between infiltration for the purposes of intelligence and the agent provocateur actions described above. You'd absolutely expect the former, but the latter surprises me, least of all because it's so counter productive unless to justify some sort of danger money levy to the days policing or somesuch.

Yes Smg, conspicuous by absence. My guess is s/he infiltrated back out the forum lines once the conversation took this turn before it was too late.