new video footage shows police assaulting Tomlinson from behind

[AllforNun]

here look at this just up today -

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-wellbeing/health-news/has-globalisation-made-us-more-catastropheprone-1674848.html

bleedin lefty rag trouble makers !

[louisiana]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I think it's population that demands intensive

> farming, not capitalism. We should really by

> thanking our lucky stars that capitalism provides

> the investment and incentive to develop

> appropriate solutions.

Huguenot, when was the last time the UK produced anything agricultural in response to population increase/trends?

When we had the marketing boards (e.g. the milk marketing board until the 1990s), production was a response to 'you can sell all you can produce' (price guaranteed, no limit on production that could be sold). This - along with developments in technology such as pesticides and fertilizers and breeding - encouraged all farms to move from mixed extensive farming to specialised intensive farming. (Some of them have since realised that it was a cul-de-sac.) CAP was just guaranteed prices with quotas (as opposed to guaranteed prices without quotas as with MMB). Producers just bounced in and out of various quotas, purchased quotas etc.

None of this has been a response to population levels.

[Huguenot]

Of course the Tomlinson case is a law and order issue. The police were dealing injudiciously and inappropriately with a perceived threat.

The fact that they assaulted someone that resulted in their death doesn't mean it wasn't about law and order.

Policing is a question of how we enforce the laws that are democratically established to keep our society stable.

Clearly not the way they did in this case.

On your other subject, the Independent doesn't claim that capitalism created swine flu, it highlights the rather obvious point that if you travel a lot, disease is going to spread more quickly.

[Huguenot]

Louisiana, do you really believe that UK agriculture is reflection of the world? You're just about to go to China, where people used to get shot for falling short of their quotas. It houses 25% of the world's population, the UK barely 0.5%.

The pesticides etc. that you discuss are the product of big pharma and capitalism.

There surely cannot be any doubt that the world's population could not be sustained without modern farming methods developed in capitalist societies.

[louisiana]

The UK is the UK, but governments have sought to control/manage agriculture everywhere from Europe to the USSR (five year plans) to the US to... Farmers respond to current money/profit and financial arrangements, not to population.

There cannot be any doubt that productivity at current levels in certain areas cannot be sustained without big pharma, but big pharma depends on big oil and gas (e.g. fertilisers, tractor fuel), and big oil and gas is just about to go down the pan.

[Huguenot]

Absolutely right, and on one side of the money/profit equation is demand (driven by population). ;-)

[AllforNun]

"it highlights the rather obvious point that if you travel a lot, disease is going to spread more quickly"

exactly my blinkered pony ! and travel is linked to what ! you got it the expansion of das capital..... it's like the old one man and his dog with you, now chop chop into the pen while i shut the gate. There is a riot about to kick of the police are acting like a mob and the electorate are tooling up ! as for this nonsensical senile nonsense

"Policing is a question of how we enforce the laws that are democratically established to keep our society stable"

your making one giant leap to 'democratically established' you don't half like to jump with these blinkers on.

anyway ............. MURDERERS ! "justice for Ian Tomlinson, killed by the filth, don't let the bastards grind you down!"

[Huguenot]

Travel isn't associated with capitalism, but with trade and cultural exchange.

Trade and cultural exchange are derived from the uneven distribution of resources around the world, a consistent problem whatever the political arrangement you choose.

None of which has anything to do with the Tomlinson tragedy, which is about people believing that they're not subject to the same set of rules as the rest of us live by.

[PeckhamRose]

It was not about people believing that they're not subject to the same set of rules as the rest of us live by.

It was about some people who care very much, trying to make politicians realise that they are not happy with the ridiculous rules being put in place in all our names, and that sometimes, just sometimes we want to let them know that little fact.

[Ted Max]

I think he meant the police, PR.

[PeckhamRose]

Oooooooooohhhhhhhhhh sorry!!!!!!!!!

[louisiana]

Cultural exchange? Tell that to the economic migrants.

Though I'm sure the British Council would understand.

[AllforNun]

has nothing to do with capitalism but with trade and cultural exchange !

My god man this is well the biggest load of balls ever bigger even than most of the stuff i post, huge can i just ask you one thing, am i, do i, have i, been actually in a dialogue with an x prime minister of this country, is this, are you, in fact the grey man of politics, he of the secret affair with the egg lady, he who once said that England should be a place where everyone has a village on which to play cricket the edges of which would be dotted with sleepy backwater pubs serving ale to men folk whilst buxom wenches play a sirens song from behind an oaken bar. ARE YOU JOHN MAJOR

NOT TO DO WITH CAPITALISM BUT WITH TRADE AND CULTURAL EXCHANGE (i ask you!) - rather like saying that prostitution not borne out of heavy drug use and a desperate need for money is in fact about the art of loving and caressing and warm milky hand jobs given charitably in a multitude of foreign languages !!!!!!

(voted post of the week)

[Huguenot]

You're getting it AfN!

In impersonal terms prostitution is a service that has a higher value and lower supply in one country than another. Hence the workers migrate.

Trade isn't exclusive to capitalism, both the USSR and China are supported politically by the fact that they allow easy exchange of goods across an under-resourced area. The trade may be bartered or forced, but it still requires travel to take place.

The service may be intrinsically less appealing than other available work, so only those who have fewer options are likely to take it up. If the workers have substantial expenditure in other areas, then they're under more pressure to take the risk.

The economic and social factors that persuade people to undertake this expenditure and risk are well documented, but I can assure you that they're not associated uniquely with capitalism - China probably sustains the largest mobile prostitution workforce in the world, the millions that support the 200m strong migrant labour pool.

Cultural exchange is essentially 'getting to know you', and has widespread benefits.

PR, sorry for my lack of clarity! On the Tomlinson episode I was referring to a particular policemen who lived by his own rules. I wholeheartedly support peaceful demonstration, although I tend to think there are more effective ways of getting one's point across.

[AllforNun]

Globalisation and the removal of borders and boundries is absolutely driven by Capitalism....fact.

[Huguenot]

Fact, fact, fact.

Chuckle.

And how many nations in the now defunct USSR? 15?

I can see by your terse and inappropriate FACT stating that you're becoming frustrated by the debate, and snuffling around the corner of irritable.

It's not because I'm annoying (although I quite clearly am), it's because the guys who are filling your head with this drivel are both misinformed and misguided.

An open mind and an education will get you a darn sight further in life than hanging around nightclubs with morons. It's not as easy though. Mouth agape and swearing at the genius of pillocks is easy to achieve and requires no particular investment than the opportunity for a good shag.

Getting it right means more effort than a sh*t in an ATM.

[AllforNun]

er ! "hanging around nightclubs with morons" christ what you on son !

And no not irritating, it's just such a simple premise "Globalisation and the removal of borders and boundries is absolutely driven by Capitalism" that you would have to be "hanging around nightclubs with morons" not to get it...

I would be happy to explain or reccomenend some reading material for you, try starting here.

Globalization and its discontents. Essays on the New Mobility of People and Money, - Saskia_Sassen

[PeckhamRose]

I'm enjoying this.

[Huguenot]

Not only is it a simple premise, but it's absolute nonsense.

"Globalisation and the removal of borders and boundries is absolutely driven by Capitalism"

Tosh.

The three largest "countries" in the world in recent history are demonstrably not capitalist: USSR, China and India.

All of them have been generated by the removal of internal borders from essentially self-determined autonomous states.

The only country in the world that's still asserting its sovereignty over independent nations is China (with Tibet and Taiwan).

Greed is not capitalist, neither are territorial disputes.

You're quite simply being confused with bad information. ;-) I've not read Saskia's ramblings, but you'll respect my concern when the last two recommendations you tendered recommended burning books and pooing in ATMs.

Will Hutton does great books on the subject, that you'll probably agree with, as I do. However, since he doesn't make things up, you may not be familiar.

[AllforNun]

Not sure that pooing in ATM's was me ? anyway

"All of them have been generated by the removal of internal borders from essentially self-determined autonomous states."

this makes me think that you have completely misunderstood the point. 2 of the 3 countries you named were also 2 of the most internalised states in the world , so really, as your such a fan of history i think even you will get the fact that driven by ...something...what could it be now.....they have both changed their outlook slightly !

Anyway i sort of feel like i am trying to convince someone that the world is not square so it's kind of pointless really - Next week i am going to show you Fire, and explain why sex with your relations is not really a good thing ...x ....must dash now and soil and ATM.

[Huguenot]

I think probably we're confusing whether national borders are important in market based economies, and whether they are 'removed'.

There is undoubtedly a change in perception within governments engaged in market economies. They lose even the feeblest veneer of having a monopoly on national destiny.

Since you've always suggested that government itself is a corrupt concept, I don't see why you'd be bothered by this. Free markets are a natural development of the anarchosyndicalism you espouse. Something which the movement fails to realise.

I'm not personally bothered as I don't regard governments to have an awful lot of power anyway. Even where they do have influence, they tend to follow national consensus, which is influenced heavily by the media, whose agenda is set by members of the Bildeburg consipracy ;-)

But then since in Allfornunistan the only media is endless episodes of Deal or No Deal, we'll have to assume you'd prefer a lottery inspired approach to foreign policy?

[AllforNun]

no not confusing anything i just think you need to modernise your reading material, and no your right governments have very little power ....!!!! in your world of old out of date books..... of course the media is so independent ....these powerless governments must have missed that one. Now really stick your neck out and say something a little bit interesting and we can carry on, i suppose though your faith in such independent and groundbreaking media stations as the BBC is really your undoing as for Deal or no Deal is that not made by another long since failed state of a TV company ? controlled, no doubt by now, via the long arm of our powerless government.

Anyway they beat a defence less man to death with a metal baton, the police lied and tried to cover it up, the mayor and his office joined in to keep a lid on it as did the conservative party in general, Boris J is complicit in this man's death and he is splashed all over Time Out with a fucking grin on his face. And the BBC were following orders to trumpet Gordon Brown saving the world and to keep the G20 protests out of the main news leaders.

MURDERERS

[Huguenot]

Remember AfN, you can't be paranoid if they're really out to get you ;-)

[Huguenot]

About the only modern parallel with a workers collective is the fishing industry, where both the means of production and the profit are owned by the workers.

Strong community ties and harsh working environments make them interdependent.

The fishing industry is also notable for their inability to regulate sensibly their activity, destroying the Grand Banks, and turning the North Sea into a desert.

When faced with the consequences of their action, they rejected any responsibility and took to robbing each other.

When that didn't work they took to race-based propaganda that required military intervention in international waters to prevent bloodshed.

These workers collectives, far from a disorganised but well meaning rabble that recommend freedom for all, are in fact a cancerous myopic blight that destroys everything they touch. At the first sign of challenge their first solution is violence.

Nothing romantic about anarchism.

[AllforNun]

Who mentioned workers collective, who mentioned working !

and you are very loose or should i say egotistically middle class with the way you stake your claims to facts !

"are in fact a cancerous myopic blight that destroys everything they touch" who fact ? yours i suppose.

now stop pulling fish out of butt and go read that book - you have a week then we shall continue.

"justice for Ian Tomlinson, Killed by the filth , never let the bastards grind you down"