Charter vs Private school

[Otta]

Just to add, that if a child can't pass an entrance exam, especially if they're tutored, then a competetive private school probably isn't right for them anyway.

[madmum]

We earn an average wage, we have managed to pay for childcare over the last 10 years (circa ?15,000 pa) so we will plough on.

Even if you tutor your child and they pass the exams who's to say they will be offered a place, it's more than money and results, you child has to have the right attitude. My child has seen all the schools in the area from state to independent, He has decided to sit exams for 2 independent schools, we will not be tutoring him, he will have to work hard.

I meant as a pupil! Both my husband and I went through the system so know the pitfalls..you can be blinded by the sales pitch and ofsted reports if you like but a turds still a turd no matter what you wrap it in.

[emro]

It is wrong to say private education confers an economic advantage on its pupils as the only research I can find into this is from the Sutton Trust, their report last July , Their report says that for the first time they have calculated the ?wage premium? experienced by those attending independent schools and it states that when you take into account social background and early ability the amount someone whose gone to a private school will earn extra in total is ?57,653 . That probably equates to about 4 years fees in many local private schools so actually on average ?economically? the research suggests independent education on average does not even pay back what has been paid out in the first place.

Plus there is a lot of talk about class sizes I would be interested if anyone has any real research on class sizes because the only research I have seen ( Sutton trust report again) suggests that educational outcome is dependent on quality of teacher rather than class size and actually countries that do well in international education league tables ( not that should necessarily be how we judge education) often have bigger class sizes than UK

I would suggest that the fact that state school educated do better at Uni than private school educated is because of a better quality of teaching and that bigger class sizes have meant they are more able at 18 to learn things independently when they get to uni and aren?t spoon fed anymore !

[Otta]

madmum Wrote:

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> I meant as a pupil! Both my husband and I went

> through the system so know the pitfalls..you can

> be blinded by the sales pitch and ofsted reports

> if you like but a turds still a turd no matter

> what you wrap it in.

I've been through the system too, and I don't know how you can label state education as a turd, that is pretty bloody insulting to everyone who doesn't have the choices you have. Of course there are good and bad schools, but that is a ludicrous generalisation.

I guess a large part of it is down to when you bought your house (I mean "you" general, not YOU). If you've paid off a large portion of your mortgage, and have a good deal, then this might be possible. If like me you only got on the ladder recently, then there is absolutely no way you're going to be able to afford ?15k a year for child care / schooling. Just not possible.

[madmum]

Not all schools are turd just some? IMO

If our child doesn't get into a Independent then of course he will go to a state school, but probably not around here?YES we will move for a school?.oh yes I am one of those people! Mums gotta do what a mums gotta do.

[Otta]

If she can afford it ;-)

[DuncanW]

MadMum - I thought you were hoping for Charter 2 as the thought of leaving the area makes you shudder?

[LondonMix]

It's complicated. The links below discuss additional research that add some more light. In my view there are three advantages that private school education confers.

1. Two equally capable 18 year old students, one state educated and one privately educated will not get the same A-level exams. The private school student will get better exam results and have better university prospects and earning potential. As you say, when a state school pupil gets the same grades as a private school pupil the state school pupil actually then does better at university than the privately educated student, suggesting greater innate talent.

2. Private school pupils with the same exam results as state pupils earn more than state educated pupils. This element of it is the smaller figure in the Sutton trust report you mentioned I believe (I've read it but can't remember exactly). This is worrying because it has nothing to do with achievement but more subtle advantages that private education confers.

3. Most importantly, is the general achievement gap. As young toddlers (in the US) there is no real cognitive difference between rich babies, middle income babies and poor babies (see the Brookings Institute link). However, a cognitive development gap starts to open up even before schooling begins and by the age of 18 is significant. Rich people do not genetically have a materially higher proportion of the smartest children in the country. Yet, their children's cognitive ability both in and out of school is developed so that most people that can afford private education have children capable of doing well in an academically rigorous environment. Schooling plays a huge part in this and the rich know this very well. The reason why many now enroll their children in private school from reception is that if they start out in the school early when cognitive development differences are low (and hence its easier to get in), they know they'll be developed enough to stay on when things become more competitive-- I know several people who have explicitly done this.

Therefore the true gap in earnings isn't to be measured against how top performers in private school compare to top performers in public school but rather the significant over representation of the privately educated in elite universities / the best exam results in the first place.

Interestingly, the stress induced by poverty itself reduces cognition by up to 13 IQ points based on recent studies. How we combat these factors that keep the poor trapped in poverty and the rich secure in wealth is a very real issue that is not discussed politically. Its about ensuring that all children regardless of the parents income have the same cognitive development opportunities in school and for the lowest income pupils that they get additional help to support their development, particularly in early childhood.

http://www.businessinsider.com/poverty-effect-on-intelligence-2013-8?IR=T

http://www.brookings.edu/research/reports/2013/06/13-facts-higher-education

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-29818363

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/11243899/Private-school-pupils-get-better-degrees-even-if-theyre-less-clever.html

emro Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It is wrong to say private education confers an

> economic advantage on its pupils as the only

> research I can find into this is from the Sutton

> Trust, their report last July , Their report says

> that for the first time they have calculated the

> ?wage premium? experienced by those attending

> independent schools and it states that when you

> take into account social background and early

> ability the amount someone whose gone to a private

> school will earn extra in total is ?57,653 .

> That probably equates to about 4 years fees in

> many local private schools so actually on average

> ?economically? the research suggests independent

> education on average does not even pay back what

> has been paid out in the first place.

>

> Plus there is a lot of talk about class sizes I

> would be interested if anyone has any real

> research on class sizes because the only research

> I have seen ( Sutton trust report again) suggests

> that educational outcome is dependent on quality

> of teacher rather than class size and actually

> countries that do well in international education

> league tables ( not that should necessarily be how

> we judge education) often have bigger class sizes

> than UK

>

> I would suggest that the fact that state school

> educated do better at Uni than private school

> educated is because of a better quality of

> teaching and that bigger class sizes have meant

> they are more able at 18 to learn things

> independently when they get to uni and aren?t

> spoon fed anymore !

[mybaby178]

Otta Im not calling any state school poison and that is my point you say you have no idea how I could turn this round for a state school to be called poison- well that is exactly my feelings with regards to private school- what possibly could be poisonous about a private school- you guys need to look at the bigger picture and understand that you seem to think it is perfectly ok to insult those that send their children to private schools when the majority of you have no insight or experience of being in these schools.

Furthermore Otta we are not minted but yes are clearly comfortable enough to put our children through private schooling- does that make us privileged? maybe so but why should we feel guilty about this?

Life is not always fair both at school and in the workplace and we just have to get on with it and make do with what we have got. Both my husband and I spent the good part of 7 years studying for our professions and I had alot of debt at the end of it as my parents were not in a position to help me pay my fees but I got there in the end without self pity and sprouting how unfair life can be.

A child's path in life is not determined purely on the schooling they have had but more so on the parenting they receive, I was educated through the state system all the way through primary and secondary, in fact Otta I believe we went to the same secondary school, and this school was by no means your average state school- I remember having to sit a test to enter this school and in this respect it was somewhat selective as I also needed to be interviewed to get in- not so much different to private schooling do you think?

[Otta]

Maybe read back a bit and point out where I've insulted anyone or called private education poisonous.

All I've said is that those that can afford it are in a privileged position over those that can't. See also those that can afford to move to where the best state schools are.

I've made no judgement, I've just stated something that is a fact.

Save it for someone that is actually insulting you. I'm not jealous of you, I am quite content with my lot, but to deny a privilege, even one you've worked hard to earn, is a nonsense.

[mybaby178]

Otta you are correct it is not you that insulted me but one of the other forum users above- apologies if you think this is directed only to you as it isn't.

My point is that life is what you make it, if you really want to succeed then you need to find a way of doing this, this does not necessary mean private education but investing time in your children.

My family came over to this country with absolutely nothing as they were refugees, they have never accepted any benefits but grafted hard to be where we are today. As a family we have made a decision that private schooling is what we want for our girls and I will not feel guilty about doing this

[Otta]

PS. also never said you should feel guilty.

You've put a lot of words in to my mouth that someone else may have said but I certainly haven't. I even said I may send my kids private of I had the cash.

I am anti the private school system because I think it's very unfair. But I don't blame the people that use it.

I'm very very anti Amazon not paying enough tax, but I don't condemn the people (me included) that take advantage of their often cheap prices.

PPS. When were you at Aske's? I'm told I did an entrance exam but have no memory of it (and I do remember my interview with the headmaster). Remember doing an exam at primary school but that was just the banding exam everyone did.

[Otta]

Cross post.

[mybaby178]

I think you were in upper sixth when i was in lower sixth

[emro]

Re Londonmix post

Sorry but this is just not true, where is the research to back this up, if we go back to the original title of this thread about the charter school , actually as i posted earlier if you compare like with like ( which is hard to do as independent schools do not publish value added data ) but if you look specifically at the charter versus private schools locally then the bright kids at the charter get better exam results than those at the independent schools

And on the economic advantage , yes you are right that the sutton trust report says there is an economic benefit to being educated privately - but as i mentioned their research shows it is 57,000 over a lifetime earnings so what Im saying is it doesnt sound like an economic benefit if you have forked out ?100,000 + and get about half back

[brezzo]

Sorry emro, but you have no evidence to support that assertions. You have compared Charter's Gifted & Talented cohort (about 10% of a year group) with all students in private schools. Frankly there are some very ordinary students at Dulwich college and some superbright kids at Charter, so comparing a selection with a whole group is not accurate.

Personally, as a Charter parent I wish you were correct, but facts do have a habit of getting in the way of a good story.

[tomskip]

"Frankly there are some very ordinary students at Dulwich college"

Is this really true? I know nothing very much about Dulwich College (or any other private school for that matter - our poor deprived children, sadly, have to make do with the turd schools) except that I thought you had to get through a fairly tough entrance exam to get a place. Perhaps I am wrong.

[KatsuQueen]

Tomskip "turd schools" made me spit out my tea, brilliant...

Private school, is just another one of those things that I would buy/pay for if I had the money...like 5 bedroom houses, a big garden, Caribbean holidays, first class travel, private masseuse, Louboutin shoes etc...but of course my children's education would come first (ahem).

[Kat]

Emro - not too sure where you got the statistic for Charter. I got this from their webssite.

"Our drive to ensure excellence at the highest level is illustrated by the outstanding results of our more able and talented students. 19% ,that is 29 students, gained at least 8A*/A grades"

so 19% for the Charter.

87.2% for Dulwich College (190 students)

90% for Alleyns (128 students)

98% for JAGS (104 students)

Charter is an average school when comparing with the other state schools. But comparing with the local private schools is just ridiculous.

[Otta]

We'll never know of course, but I wonder how those high attainers from the private schools would have fared in a decent state school.

[bawdy-nan]

Then there's this:

http://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/education/gordon_brown_psychologist_tanya_byron_warns_fear_of_failure_behind_rise_in_pupil_anxiety_1_2815427

http://www.standard.co.uk/lifestyle/london-life/overstressed-underweight-and-selfharming-the-dark-side-of-londons-public-schools-9165530.html

[emro]

Brezzo , think its bit unfair to say facts are getting in way of a good story

As actually I get that many people have strong opinions on the value or not of private education but actually much of this opinion ( on this string on the forum or in real life) is actually borne from people's own experience of schools or their childrens' or anecdotal evidence rather than from any firm facts

I agree it is probably almost impossible to compare like with like as league tables simply listing academic grades are nonsense if they compare selective with non selective schools , so that is why i think the closest fact we can use is the group at the charter who had they taken the entrance exams to dulwich college/jags /alleyns etc prob would have been offered a place - of course yes this is a small group - but its a much better comparison than a regular league table

and of course I dont know how academic you have to be to pass an entrance exam to the independent schools in dulwich but I very much doubt there are academically "average' Pupils , in the times report in feb headteacher at dulwich college said they'd taken 17% of those who sat exam this year which would suggest if they are taking " average " kids then the vast majority who applied are actually below academic average ?

Anyhow I would be interested to see if there are any "facts" that support a theory that bright children in dulwich would do better academically at an independent school in dulwich than at the charter

[LondonMix]

I'm not talking about the Charter school but state schools in general fa the private sector.

I've already linked to the quoted research and explained that the 57k is only a small portion of the economic advantage.

[LondonMix]

Otta of course its going to depend on the state school and the private school you are comparing but in general they privately educated pupil would get lower A-level results if they were in the state sector. This is now so well established in research (that I linked to earlier but you can google it) that there are calls to take this into account for UK admissions (essentially accepting state educated pupils with lower scores in recognition of the fact that once at university they?ll outperform private pupils that have similar scores because they have more potential / ability).

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> We'll never know of course, but I wonder how those

> high attainers from the private schools would have

> fared in a decent state school.

[helloED]

LondonMix Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Otta of course its going to depend on the state

> school and the private school you are comparing

> but in general they privately educated pupil would

> get lower A-level results if they were in the

> state sector.

Actually I don't think you can actually know this is true either way - that those that go to private would not get the A-levels had they gone to state school. It seems that what that study is actually saying is that if you are one of those state school children that have fought their way to A*s/As at a-levels you've got a certain amount of determination that is going to carry you far. How do you know if a private school student placed in state at year 7 wouldn't develop that same determination? Also I don't understand how that study is comparing apples to apples when their sample of selective independent students is much smaller than their state school sample.

But finally, I just want to say all these school discussions are so depressing. Where is the talk about schools that foster intellectual curiosity, love of learning, & creativity rather than slogging up the league tables? I'm not talking about creativity in the artistic sense, but even for those that pursue sciences and maths. It seems the exciting jobs that will be our children's future require them to think creatively and with a multi-disciplinary approach - which is why even places like Shanghai parents are bemoaning the academic wringer their children are put through.