Quids Said - would you do it?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> >

> Tony feel free to comment away, but given that

> London has always, and will always change before

> all of our very eyes it still begs the question...

> and??

and I preferred going down to my local High Street, The Walworth Road and buying Kennedys English Sausages, which had been established for over 100 years in South London.

They have now closed due to "lack of demand" and I do NOT like it or what that tells me about Sarf Londres.

So thats what this has really been about, the fact that I can't buy Kennedys Sausages in Peckham or Camberwell or Walworth or in varius other parts of South London anymore....:X

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Mark Wrote:

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> Tony, if you were the Mayor of London for a day

> how would you change London? What policies would

> you put in place to make it better?

Mark, a friend is coming shortly so I'll answer later.

In the interim I'd re-open all Kennedys Sausages Shops and bring as many Irish people over, as possible, to live here as I bleedin' luv 'em, thank the sweet stars:)

[Keef]

What *bob* said. This did make me think of a conversation Mrs Keef and I had yesterday about someone we know who has lived in council housing all her life, and believes she has a right to it, and shows off about how she will scam the council, moaning about "all these immigrants coming and taking all the housing from people that need it". Oh the irony! Just made me chuckle.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

I'm out now but all you have to do is live long enough to see the amusing side of life.

2 quick examples:

1/ Keef mentioned the Housing Lists...White Brits complained thru' the 1960's/1970's/1980's that they were being pushed further down the queue and "proirity" was given to those coming from Jamaica and other places.

What did I hear on the radio 4/5 weeks ago? A Jamaican Woman bemoaning the fact that her Daughter culd not get a Council place due to all these East Europeans blah blah...

2/ Watts, California.

Been reading on another Forum how Whites were eplaced by Black people in this area and the Whites complained that they lived "twenty to a room" (Cheers "bob":)))....move forward 30 years and now ??

Black people arecomplaining that they are becoming a minority in "their" area and they don't like it one bit and the quote was:

"The Mexicans live 10 to a room" blah blah....

All you have to do is live long enough to see the cycle of life1

Here's to the next 50 years for ALL of us:)-D

[Huguenot]

I don't know where people get the idea that because of where they were born, or the colour of their skin, or the language they speak, or the religion that they follow, that they're 'entitled' to some bit of land, or that your 'rights' mean you're more deserving than someone else.

I don't believe I should be judged for the sins of my father, and neither do I believe that I should get any benefits if he was a good guy. It's just ridiculous.

Society belongs to those people who are making it here, today. They accrue rights and benefits according to their contributions.

It's often immigrant communities who contribute most. We should be eternally grateful for the carribean arrivals in the 60s and 70s because they dragged this country off it's knees after the war.

On another note, it's very silly to describe London as the land built by generations of our ancestors. It never was. It's a port for God's sake. East Dulwich didn't even exist as we know it until 1890. It wasn't built. It was fields. After that everyone was an immigrant!

Newham was docks, if TLS takes a DNA test I suspect, like Gary Bushell before him, that he'll regret his views on immigration and race.

[Xena Worried prince]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> I admit that I do sometimes feel frustrated when

> some people don't make more of an effort to

> integrate with the local community, but the same

> accusation could be made towards most British

> ex-pats (or plenty of Brits at home to be

> honest).

I have to smile at this comment about "people not making an effort to integrate with the local community" as it reminds me of a 'discussion' i had in a pub many years ago with a member of the NF.

He started moaning about all the "foreigners" coming to England and not integrating and not following our culture by bringing theirs with them. I agreed with him and pointed out that it was just like when the British went to China, India, Africa and other countries and how we roughshod over their cultures and way of life to impose imperial rule.

Funny thing is he went silent after that.

I love the multicultural society we live in, but I don't like to hear negative or positive discrimination as this just highlights a difference between people.

At the end of the day, what makes us Great is our ability to absorb other cultures, ideals and ways of life. Lets look at the great food favorite - Curry, and yes I morn the loss of Kennedys too but Food, not just the people, has moved on Kennedys were no longer producing the sort of goods that people want, they failed to move with the times to reinvent their range and suffered as a result.

* Rant over *

If I was mayor of London (or PM) would I change things, yes I guess I would, I would ensure a fair policy for restricted numbers migration to the UK (to ensure we can cope with any influx), at the same time close all of the back doors in so that we don't have an underclass of illegal Immigrants working for pittance, living in fire hazard rooms and not having a quality of life. I would also ensure we do St Georges day in the same way we do St Patrick's day or Chinese New Year (Proud to be British) and bring in modern routemasters with conductors on ALL routes (Especially the 185).

[*Bob*]

Back to the issue of the impending GE:

When the mayoral election was afoot, someone posted a link to an online twenty questions-type multiple-choice survey which gave you the name of the candidate you ought to be voting for according to the answers you gave.

Is there similar thing knocking about with regards to a general election?

[Marmora Man]

I'm tempted to ask for this thread to be locked off - it has drifted a long way from the original question of "would you / wouldn't you vote Tory".

However, the last three posts from Hugenot, Xena and Bob seem more rational and sane.

[Brendan]

Good points Huguenot but let?s take your opening statement which is one of a personal belief rather than a factual situation.

Does a group of people who are from the same place, have the same culture beliefs and social structure, are vulnerable to the same things and are distinct from other groups in the world not have the right to self determination?

This is an important question globally considering the current tend towards globalisation.

London being what it is may be a microcosm of what will happen globally in time.

I don?t have an opinion personally but I think it is an important question to ask before you start having opinions.

Sorry to veer of topic there MM. This has nothing to do with who I may or may not choose to vote for.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

I used to read philosophy, political theory, watch documentaries, listen to wise men and women distilling the sum of human achievements to try to gain a glimpse of what human life means.

All that wasted time, I could have just listened to what Huguenot thinks.....

If I Was Mayor Of London For A Day ?

Well I'll be admirably succinct as I would hate to be party to this thread being locked off.......

[citizenED]

Please don't succumb to the lure of "locking-down" Mr MM, sir. This is interesting stuff. Just to keep on track, I will reiterate that I will vote Labour next time round. Big question is, when voting in an election should you be voting for the party that you think will be better for you, or better fo rthe country as a whole? I always subscribe to the latter.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

.......10 ideas if I was Mayor for a Day:.

1/ Remove bus lanes, Remove buses and taxis from the bus lane, so only cyclists can use it...

2/ Instruct the Met to arrest all 659 MPs on suspiscion of abusing public office for pecuniary gain.

3/ Conversely to (1) remove cyclists...

4/ Invest heavily in leisure centres and sports facilities.

5/ Make lycra compulsory so that fatties would think twice about going to the sweet-shop in daylight.

6/ Allocate every smack-addict the 10p they request for the bus fare home , and clean the pish and vomit from the 1 million newly vacant doorways.

7/ Decrease the time it takes between green men.

8/ Do something about prostitution depending on what Londoners want to do about it.

9/ Total lockdown for anyone who isn't me.....

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Oh! I forgot!

10/ Second the motion to please not succumb to the lure of "locking-down" Mr MM,

[Peckhamgatecrasher]

I am a natural Tory but that's a wasted vote round here, so I usually go Lib Dem or Green depending how I feel on the day.

[Huguenot]

On the Tory question, I guess I shouldn't really vote, since I'm not there to suffer the consequences. Were I there, it would probably be Lib Dem. They need a more effective grass roots organisation and a better national infrastructure to make it happen properly though.

On Brendan's point, I was making an observation on contributors who seem to think that 'immigrants' (erm... definitions??) should get the boot because they don't share the same taste in chicken.

This isn't self-determination: our immigrant population was invited to join us because we required them for labour or rewarded them for services to the country. A tiny number of immigrants have been invited to join us for humanitarian reasons. We 'self-determined' that we wanted them here.

We democratically accepted freedom of employment and residence across the EU because it was manifestly in our own interests.

None of these is a violation of the right for the British (or others) to self-determination, but having made those decisions we can't go back on them. These 'immigrants' are British now and they're not going to vote to be disenfranchised.

You can't vote to get them out. They're not houseboys.

Self-determination (within limitations) is enshrined within "[individuals] accrue rights and benefits according to their contributions", which encompasses concepts such as property rights, economic investment and return.

For self-determination to also include Europe for the Aryans, the Holy Land for whichever religious faction claims it next, or Newham for the whites is obscene.

If everyone wanted the 'right to the retun' at the expense of the current residents, we'd have 6 billion people crammed round a campfire in the Rift Valley. You can't pick and choose what period in history you want to 'return' to.

I mean, Mockney Piers would be able to have land in Germany, Spain and Antigua at the expense of the local population because he'd 'self-determined' to.

Neither does self-determination include someone else paying for you to have a council house because your Dad fought in the war.

Frankly, 'little Englanders' must be living in cloud cuckoo land.

[????]

I haven't seen anyone say immigrants should get the boot...i've seen lots of posters jump down another posters throat because he didn't stick to the rules of the middle-class (white) dinner party...I think accusing someone of racism for being honest about their feelings about how the community they grew up in has changed (without as far as I can see making any judgement on this) is actually pretty prejudice....I'm going to post something that I did last year as I can't be arsed to rewrite this but I think the context holds true...

"mmmmm.....fairly predictable stuff.

Right - I can't stand the BNP and think their policies are laughable

...on the other hand I have old friends and relatives who are largely from or certainly have their roots in the east end and east London have 'seen', or at least 'feel' that 'their' communities have been 'swamped' and many have and are considering voting BNP, I argue with them about this but a frightening number of them will, at least in the local elections, vote BNP. The irony is that they are mainly traditional labour voters and , of course, mix, work, have neighbours, friends, relations and even partners who are from ethnic minorities....I dare say far more than smug, 'right-on' liberal SE22 which is hideously white and 'unswamped' by any stretch of the imagination...It makes me think that when largely decent hardworking white working class people are turning to the BNP then we should be brave enough to at least question some of the effects of continued mass immigration on our country without being branded 'racist'" Quids, April 2008

[Mark]

I agree with quids that you should be able to question such things and debate them, however it does gets annoying when a debate gets ruined by someone morris dancing around the debating chamber shouting nonsense.

Anyway, currently I think would vote for Labour however only just, if Cameron had more balls and had less of a "slimey politician saying things so that people like me" air about him I think he would appeal to me more as a leader of the country. When the time comes I'll have a look at the policies of both parties and make a judgement. As the ruling party the Lib Dems don't even get a look in I'm afraid however at a local level I think they work well because they don't have to think nationally.

[edited once]

[Keef]

Agree with Quids. I was going to say yesterday, but forgot, that if you replace immigrants coming to London with blow ins to ED since 2009, then you get Louisa, and sometimes even me. We all have fond memories of the way things once were.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Huguenot Wrote:

On Brendan's point, I was making an observation on contributors who seem to think that 'immigrants' (erm... definitions??) should get the boot because they don't share the same taste in chicken.

TLS: I AGREE Huguenot: Tell me who said they "should get the boot" and I'll have a sharp word with them.

Name Names please as I have missed that, on this thread.

H: This isn't self-determination: our immigrant population was invited to join us because we required them for labour or rewarded them for services to the country. A tiny number of immigrants have been invited to join us for humanitarian reasons. We 'self-determined' that we wanted them here.

We democratically accepted freedom of employment and residence across the EU because it was manifestly in our own interests.

None of these is a violation of the right for the British (or others) to self-determination, but having made those decisions we can't go back on them. These 'immigrants' are British now and they're not going to vote to be disenfranchised.>

You can't vote to get them out. They're not houseboys.

Self-determination (within limitations) is enshrined within " accrue rights and benefits according to their contributions", which encompasses concepts such as property rights, economic investment and return.

TLS: Factually, all true.

H: For self-determination to also include Europe for the Aryans, the Holy Land for whichever religious faction claims it next, or Newham for the whites is obscene. If everyone wanted the 'right to the retun' at the expense of the current residents, we'd have 6 billion people crammed round a campfire in the Rift Valley. You can't pick and choose what period in history you want to 'return' to.

TLS: I've heard, ad nauseum, this point about "if you go back far enough in your genes" or "immigrants have always been here" and its disingenious. The truth is that for many hundreds of years the Profile of the people of this Country HAS been "White/British"..I think that is the FIRST time that I have said "White" on this thread. When I grew up near Peckham and 2 miles from Brixton, in the 1950's/1960's 99% of the people and children were White/British.

Look at any Newsreel from The War Years onwards, any street scene of ordinary people from any footage from The 1950's, for example, and note that 99.9% of people on there, RANDOMLY, were White and presumably British.

Yes, there had been a 250,000 Jewish Community in The East End and there WERE riots in South Shields in 1919 and there were some Black and Mixed Race People in Bristol/Cardiff/Liverpool as a result of the "evil" Slave Trade..but other than that one could go a week in Inner London and only see White/British faces so there has been a massive change, undeniably.

Presumably Huguenot YOUR intrepretation of "my" use of "evil" will be "acceptable" Slave Trade.

H: I mean, Mockney Piers would be able to have land in Germany, Spain and Antigua at the expense of the local population because he'd 'self-determined' to.

Neither does self-determination include someone else paying for you to have a council house because your Dad fought in the war.

TLS: A couple of questions for you Huguenot:

1/ Do you think it right that new arrivals into The UK should get "priority" over the indigenous population when it comes to allocation of any remaining Council accommodation?

2/ I realise the sources you use are, shall we say, "selective" but Panorama said last nght that there were 900,000 illegal UK Immigrants (400,000 in London alone), so what would you do about them?

Frankly, 'little Englanders' must be living in cloud cuckoo land.

Oh! The irony is physically hurting me! ( I know you can be very funny H. but STOP IT YOU JOKER!:)-D

Now a general point Huguenot:

You are just prooving time and time again what many people think (I've got an open mind personally) that the most eloquent, articulate posters are the least flexible intelligent. The two are, obviously, mutually exclusive, sometimes.

Thread after thread when somebody carefully takes the time and trouble to explain exactly what they feel you put a JACKBOOT (how ironic!) thru' the heart of what they say and put YOUR OWN totally inaccurate "interpretation" on it.

The reasons why you do this are not clear to me, although I have narrowed them down to:

1/ You being an "educated" fool.

2/ You having no concept whatsoever in the way MILLIONS of People, literally Millions live their life in The UK circa 2009.

3/ You are incredibly, incredibly LAZY in Debate, unbelievably so, in fact. Repeatedly I have seen posters "not dissimilar" to you on diffeent fora just basically, say or imply that someone is a "Racist" with all its EVIL implications because they do not fit in or share your "Utopian" ideals (and EXTRAORDINARILY YOU talk about people living in "CLOUD CUCKOO LAMD)..Sigh.

4/ Continuing the "Cloud Cuckoo Land" Theme you are on a massive Wind-Up (Unlikely but becoming slightly possible).

5/ You reading or intrepreting what YOU want to read or hope or expect to read from certain other peoples postings (what someone referred to in a Private PM about this thread as soneone "not being part ofa clique" here.

6/ You feel "safe" as a respected (my words despite some nonsense lately) established Poster to write anything however defammatory, however untrue, as it, inevitably, will NOT be you that is on the end of the browny stuff when it hits the fan.

7/ See (1)..

8/ You can write what you want "since I'm not there to suffer the consequences" of anything proposed by you.

I PRAY that this thread does NOT get locked, please...(I'll certainly behave) but what you have written is absolutely OUTRAGEOUS.

I GUARANTEE that if you ever return and live in London for any lengthy period that I will fraternise (through choice) is far, far more first/second/third(f/s/t) Generation "immigrants" than you will.

I very doubt (though I will never know) if there is anyone reading or contributing to this Forum who chooses to, happily, mix so freely with (f/s/t) Generation immigrants, for our mutual benefit, than I do.

It is completely farcical that I have for 35+ years now had friends from immigrant Families and yet get criticised by people who'se circle of friends includes "relatively" few people from immigrant Families themselves (my best M8 in The Law Courts in 1973 was Ugandan Asian (Rahman) and easily the closest person to me, from 1974, was Mahandrabi Dhabhi Patel "MD") who was my friend and mentor when I joined The NCB.

My first Black Ladyfriends (for you are talking "Black" here, lets be crystal clear) were around 1979/80 and I have enjoyed the Company of so many over the decades (there are certainly 40/45 numbers still on my phone now of Black friends, Male and Female that I could still contact, provided they haven't changed numbers. with far more have been mutually lost in the last 30 years) so please Admin allow my response to survive and this thread to continue despite the sinister accusations made without foundation by H.

On a wider note H. try going to a Turkish/Nigerian/Jamaican Community, or, indeed, most other Nationalities, in what "they" consider their Homeland and see how the overwhelming majority would feel if they knew they would be a fast-diminshing minority in the land of their Ancestors.

I would LOVE you to air your views freely to them and await their individual and collective responses (I would pay the air-fare for the craic!)...

and finally Esther...I will leave the best until last:

... "since I'm not there to suffer the consequences" of anything you propose about our Green and Pleasant Land.

Truly Funny:))

BRAVO!!>:D<

[Marmora Man]

Peckhamgatecrasher Wrote:

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> I am a natural Tory but that's a wasted vote round

> here, so I usually go Lib Dem or Green depending

> how I feel on the day.

PGC - have a look at Andy Stranack he's the Conservative PPC for Camberwell and Peckham and is working hard to build a coalition to defeat Harriet Harman. He has a "non standard" background for a Tory and has already built links with the local community and ethnic minorities. Given the general loathing of HH - a viable alternative could oust her.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> I don't think that anyone's losing their culture.

> London is still 75%* white/british origin. I don't

> feel as though I'm in a minority (despite having a

> non-white partner, and neighbours from diverse

> backgrounds).

>

> I admit that I do sometimes feel frustrated when

> some people don't make more of an effort to

> integrate with the local community, but the same

> accusation could be made towards most British

> ex-pats (or plenty of Brits at home to be

> honest).

>

> * guesstimated figure

UK whites a minority in London classrooms

Dominic Hayes, Evening Standard

28.09.07

White British-born children are now the minority in many London schools, official figures showed today.

In Tower Hamlets, 15 per cent of primary school pupils are classed as white British, while 63 per cent of their classmates come from Bangladeshi families.

In Newham, just under 12 per cent of primary pupils are white British, while the figure in Brent's secondaries is seven per cent, compared with 36 per cent who are classed as Asian, and 24 per cent black.

I thought I would take the trouble to research my statements about "White Minorities In parts of London" and I mentioned "Newham"......

45 years ago Newham was 99% White/British and/or Jewish now only 12% of Schoolchilden in Newham are White, how much clearer does it have to be.

This will lead to YET ANOTHER moving of the Goalposts to "What does it matter!??"...

[????]

Well said Tony - I think that you have been treated very unfairly on this thread and people should be very very careful about hinting at and bandying around labels such as racist.....I would be extremley upset if I were you

[????]

Tony, it doesn't matter at all if you've got the money to move to the right area and don't have to go to the public sector for your housing needs.....my little girl is the only white girl in her nursery this was initially the nearest one to us in SE5 and we've decided to keep her there as she's happy and we like them...for my younger boy we've started to look at nurseries in SE22....yup......pretty white..

I can't stand prejudice on eany level but the sanctomonious, hypocritical drivel from affluent white middleclasses on how free they are from prejudice get's my goat up especially.....

[mockney piers]

.

grrrrr

[Tony.London Suburbs]

???? ...A fellow Bookmaker where I work is Jewish and he invited me round to his neighbourhood where all his friends and neighbours are very affluent.

So I visited his beautiful property in Finchley in an exclusve Cul-De-Sac where the House opposite was worth ?1.7 Million and has an Inddor Swimming Pool, dont-you-know.

Over the road a Conducter here (one who usesa Baton not a ticket machine:))) a retired wealthy Dentist there.....you get the picture.

I was subjected to his Wifes views on "Life"...she has enjoyed a life of luxury, never wanting for anything and never left the Home for work.

It bore no relation at all to the everyday existence of 99% of Brits, and she wil NEVER be affected by anything she proposes.

It was Utopia/Elysium/Nirvana all in one and I, politely, listened while munching her delicious salmon sandwiches.

I laughed, "inwardly", it was surreal but amusing too..

I made a mental note to take her on a Tour of The Myatt Fields Estate (or indeed any large estate), leave her there for 5 years, and then see if her views have changed at all..:)