Quids Said - would you do it?

[Keef]

Are t illiminati not the villans created completely by the famous scholar Dan Brown?

[mockney piers]

I worked for 5 years with a member of Opus Dei, though he never met Ruth Kelly.

[Mikecg]

Keef check out David Ike hes quite convincing concerning all thing luminous, it's when he talks about 6ft lizards it all goes hideously wrong.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

mockney piers Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> *sigh* ... but to address the points raised

>

> 1 out of 5 ain't bad, I did have "the benefit of a

> decent English education" after I moved here

> (though Spain's education system has totally

> leapfrogged it since we left Franco's Spain).

>

> That's not everything though is it, everyone still

> has to carve out their own life and some of my

> contemporaries have done well, most are fine and

> happy, some did not so well, some particularly

> badly and some are dead, one of them found on a

> park bench post heroin overdose, blue as the sky

> that morning.

So mixed fortunes for your contemporaries but I merely said YOU were "reasonably affluent" so as I did not score any for that I can only conclude that you are NOT "reasonably affluent" though you haven't said so.

I said you come from The Shires meaning you were not born in Inner London. You, I assumed, have travelled a fair distance and I assumed "The Shires", forgive my laughter but I did not realise you come from even FURTHER afield!;-)

As for the last 2 points, namely:

"You, obviously, moved to the bright lights of London but have no natural affinity to the place. It "suits" for now."

Well the first part is, undeniably, correct and you have not pledged any allegiance to London Town so was I wrong?

You couldn't give a flying fcuk about England or, at best, you are indifferent, make that "supremely indifferent"

Again you have not expressed any real fondness for The Country that you choose to reside in, I doubt that "indifferent" is too wide of the mark at all!

So not only are you judgemental, you're rubbish at it.......See Above.;-)

> My "twonk" was merely expressing annoyance that a

> pretty good debate was being had, then you

> appeared in the middle of an argument no-one else

> was having, with some nice simplistic juxtaposing

> of ludicrous policies noone has proposed, a

> willingness to vote lib-dem, and a hippy hymn.>

> Yep, constructive stuff.

:))...I'll be very unlucky if I happen to be communicating with one of the few people in Britain who know a few of The Lib.Dems Policies...I'm certain 99% of people haven't a clue what their Policies are, but I did allow my loathing of The LibDems to get the better of me.:))

>

> I don't know you from Adam (and won't making a

> dreadful hash of being judgemental). You've

> probably got a good analytical mind there, some of

> your posts have certainly hinted at it in the past

> (though lord knows it's sometimes hard to see past

> the chips on your shoulder), but I don't think

> anyone will be gleaning any of that from your

> posts above and you won't win any brownie points

> from me (as if you want them) with such trite,

> pointless, tish and pish.

Thats a lifetime first, one must say.

No-one has ever accused me of having chips on my shoulders before but I am getting slightly embitterred as I get older( seeing British Troops being jeered at the other day when marching their own Country does not help) but you must realise that when I was growing up in Inner London 45 years ago I would go ONE WEEK to another and see only Brits who (As a Group) shared my Culture and now have to witness area after area in that same London, 45 years later, where the people who DO share my Culture are in the declining minority and its not easy to take I'll admit.(Imagine large parts of Madrid and Bilbao and Valencia with few Spaniards remaining)..I don't think the remaining Spanish will like that scenario do you MP?

>

> And judging by your apparent contempt of the

> shires, I'd say I'm not the one who hates

> England.

Rubbish conclusion to make from my comments. I was referring to "individuals" who come "from the shires" and have no natural affinity to London, that was not denigrating "The Shires" (which I believe are quintessentially British and all the better for it).

How you perceive a hatred of my Country from that The Good Lord only knows...:)

>

> Regardless I extend the hand of friendship if

> you'll unclench...

Well having offered a hand of friendship on here on a previous thread and been rebuffed, for the first time ever on a Forum, it would be churlish indeed if I was to do likewise so...:)-D

No hard feelings M8, lets both move on.

[Mark]

I never know that Mikecg, apparently "the Illuminati are a race of reptilian humanoids known as the Babylonian Brotherhood, and that many prominent figures are reptilian, including George W. Bush, Queen Elizabeth II, Kris Kristofferson, and Boxcar Willie". Blimey.

[*Bob*]

If you really love London Town and all it has to offer, then you need to acknowledge the people who handed it to you on a platter: the waves of transient workers residing in London 'because it suited' (over the last couple of thousand years) - and still do.

And seeing as the Liberals haven't been in power for nearly a century, I'm assuming that (under the stewardship of mainly the Tories, with a little bit of Labour) our fair City must have reached the peak of perfection? Am I right?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Under the general air of bon-homie that TLS tries to carry off, are waves of darkness I don't much care for

[Tony.London Suburbs]

*Bob* Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If you really love London Town and all it has to

> offer, then you need to acknowledge the people who

> handed it to you on a platter: the waves of

> transient workers residing in London 'because it

> suited' (over the last couple of thousand years) -

> and still do.

Acknowledged.

>

> And seeing as the Liberals haven't been in power

> for nearly a century, I'm assuming that (under the

> stewardship of mainly the Tories, with a little

> bit of Labour) our fair City must have reached the

> peak of perfection? Am I right?

Whatever standard we have reached, thus far, I fail to see how a Liberal Administration would improve it.

Pointless speculating, hypothetically, about they "might" do or "would" do as its pure supposition.

I happen to believe London would regress umder their stewardship.

[Jeremy]

Tony... your post in the small hours of this morning sounded almost like BNP speak...

[Tony.London Suburbs]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

Under the general air of bon-homie that TLS tries to carry off, are waves of darkness I don't much care for.....

If you are alluding to what I think you are, then answer me this question please Sean (and if you are not could you please answer it anyway).

You know Ireland and The Irish better than I do, You are more familiar than I am with Irish Culture, but I think I have got a flavour over the last 54 years so:-

How do you think most Irish people would feel if the area that they lived in was completely transformed in the way that many parts of London have been in their lifetime, using Newham, in East London,as an example.

I'm speaking, hypothetically, in the sense that few remaining people in a "traditionally" Irish Community through the centuries remained. and the whole area and Culture there became unrecognisable in their lifetime.

How do you honestly think most of the remaining few (who had now become the clear minority in the birthplace of Generations of their antecedents) would feel?

[*Bob*]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> How do you honestly think most of the remaining

> few (who had now become the clear minority in the

> birthplace of Generations of their antecedents)

> would feel?

"Newham is the most ethnically diverse district in the country, with no particular ethnic group dominating (39% of the population is White, 38% is Asian, and 22% is Black)"

[SeanMacGabhann]

How do I think they would feel or would I agree with them?

As a community that itself has effectively colonised large swathes of London (the 33rd county up in NW2 and beyond) I would have nothing but malice in my heart for any Irish person living in Ireland who had a problem with immigrants. And I know several irish people who fit that description. But equally I know many more who recognise the world as it is and that where your parents had sex and squatted out another mewling pup has got little bearing on what kind of human being you are or where you deserve to live

Large parts of Ireland are now populated by non-Irish people Tony. And the pathetic, narrow-mind, bitter little country that it used to be is gone, thank the sweet stars. Are there people still there who can't accept this? Absolutely.. there are (clearly) people like this everywhere

Did you have a problem with the Kilburn/Cricklewood area when it was largely Irish Tony? How did true Londoners feel about this invasion? Apart from the ones who had "no Black no Irish" in their windows? Give it to me straight Tony

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Tony... your post in the small hours of this

> morning sounded almost like BNP speak...

Jeremy: Nothing to do with BNP speak, well it might be as I don't take much notice of what they or any extreme organisation say.....I'm just stating exactly what has happened since I grew up in Inner London since the Mid-1950's and I heavily suspect that the overwhelming majority of the descendents of Generations of Londoners would feel the same.

In fact Jeremy, on your travels, take the time to speak to older Men and Women who have lived in London for say 40/50 years and see how they all, individually, feel about the loss of their Culture in many parts of Inner London.

I suspect they would feel exactly like how people of any Ethncity would feel in they suddenly became a "diminshing" minority when they were previously, virtually, a 99% Majority M8.

Thats got nothing to do with how you treat individuals.

Everyone should, naturally, receive equal respect, friendship and treatment but thats a different point to old farts like me bemoaning the loss of my Culture and the immense change in London Town.;-)

[Jeremy]

I don't think that anyone's losing their culture. London is still 75%* white/british origin. I don't feel as though I'm in a minority (despite having a non-white partner, and neighbours from diverse backgrounds).

I admit that I do sometimes feel frustrated when some people don't make more of an effort to integrate with the local community, but the same accusation could be made towards most British ex-pats (or plenty of Brits at home to be honest).

* guesstimated figure

[SeanMacGabhann]

spot on Jeremy

[Tony.London Suburbs]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> How do I think they would feel or would I agree

> with them?

The question was how do you think the majority of Irish people in my hypothetical example would feel Sean, I'm pretty sure how you would feel about it.

>

> As a community that itself has effectively

> colonised large swathes of London (the 33rd county

> up in NW2 and beyond) I would have nothing but

> malice in my heart for any Irish person living in

> Ireland who had a problem with immigrants.

Again Sean, I can see that they are your views but I'm asking how the Irish, in general, would feel.

And I know several irish people who fit that description. But equally I know many more who recognise the world as it is and that where your parents had sex and squatted out another mewling pup has got little bearing on what kind of human

being you are or where you deserve to live Large parts of Ireland are now populated by non-Irish people Tony. And the pathetic, narrow-mind, bitter little country that it used to be is gone, thank the sweet stars. Are there people still there who can't accept this? Absolutely.. there are (clearly) people like this everywhere.

Did you have a problem with the Kilburn/Cricklewood area when it was largely Irish Tony? How did true Londoners feel about this invasion? Apart from the ones who had "no Black no Irish" in their windows? Give it to me straight Tony

Sean, I love The Irish (though if you carry on like this I'll start to make an exception in your case M8:)))..

I love their "general air of bon-homie", unlike me who is clearly a fake Bon-Homier and Joie De Vivrer:)) they are genuinely (as a Group) like that...

Gregarious, Generous, Fun, Friendly, Love a Drink and a Gamble...whats NOT to like??:))....If you brought them all over from the Emerald Isle London and England would be all the better for it. Almost my favourite Nationality and I do NOT take kindly to you (or anyone else ever denigrating them!) :))

Straight enough for you Seanster?:))

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't think that anyone's losing their culture.

> London is still 75%* white/british origin. I don't

> feel as though I'm in a minority (despite having a

> non-white partner, and neighbours from diverse

> backgrounds).

>

> I admit that I do sometimes feel frustrated when

> some people don't make more of an effort to

> integrate with the local community, but the same

> accusation could be made towards most British

> ex-pats (or plenty of Brits at home to be

> honest).

>

> * guesstimated figure

Jeremy the point I feel about Ex-Pats in say, Spain, is that they stay in their own Community and, yes, shamefully, do not want to be part of thewider Spanish Community.

However in being like that they do not impact on the everyday existence of the Spanish in say Madrid, Barcelona or any other major Spanish City so the Spanish, presumably, retain their Culture in these areas.

Perhaps my old M8 Mockney Piers could confirm this.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

*Bob* Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

"Newham is the most ethnically diverse district in the country, with no particular ethnic group dominating (39% of the population is White, 38% is Asian, and 22% is Black)"

"Bob" "Bob" "Bob" please M8.....I doubt if there is a resident in Newham who believes those figures, I don't need to elaborate as I can't actually "proove" those percentages are wrong, but if one travels thru' all parts of Newham I'm sure you would not reach that conclusion.

[SeanMacGabhann]

not rreeeeeaaly Tony

You keep asking my how Irish people in GENERAL would feel. And then I tell you that most Irish people I know/observe are happy with the influx and changes

And you say you love the Irish - but as you point out that is YOUR view. It is clearly not a view shared by many of your compatriots not that long ago was it? Why would that be? Is it possible that for some people change is inherently a bad thing and if that intolerance of change manifests itself in a dislike of "other" nationalities, should it be tolerated? If you like the Irish so much, how many arguments did you have with London friends who prohibited them from staying in boarding houses? As neighbours?

And what traits of the irish do you ascribe ?

"Gregarious, Generous, Fun, Friendly, Love a Drink and a Gamble"

Well blow me over if that doesn't sound like most people from most countries I know. I lived in East Ham for several years on a street where (despite the breakdown of the borough's population above) it so happend I was one of the only white faces on the block. What did I find? I found most of the Asian and African natives to be sociable, friendly and tolerant. We got on juuuust fine. I didn't see any problems. It was safe. What is the problem exactly?

So "straigt enough for you Seanster?" - nope. What appears to be the case is you have a problem with some nationalities. Tell me again what you said to people in the 70s who denigrated irish people and tell me why you aren't doing the same for other nationalities?

[mockney piers]

"they do not impact on the everyday existence of the Spanish in say Madrid, Barcelona or any other major Spanish City"

Clearly you haven't been there of a weekend seeing the roaming gangs of stags and hens being a national embarrassment as they demonstrate the wonderful characteristics of our national culture, uncontrolled drunkenness, aggression, the sorts of things you'll see in most town centres across the country.

That said I've lived in Madrid and will usually meet ex-pats of a night out who have completely embraced the way of life.

The same can't be said for the majority of those who have colonised swathes of the costas. They want nothing to do with the culture, food, people and can't even be arsed to learn the language.

I've often said that Brits are both the best and worst travellers in the world.

[*Bob*]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "Bob" "Bob" "Bob" please M8.....I doubt if there

> is a resident in Newham who believes those

> figures, I don't need to elaborate as I can't

> actually "proove" those percentages are wrong, but

> if one travels thru' all parts of Newham I'm sure

> you would not reach that conclusion.

Don't tell me? Twenty to a room? No passports?

The white population are probably older, less visible and therefore a drive through Newham won't give you the real picture.

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I admit that I do sometimes feel frustrated when

> some people don't make more of an effort to

> integrate with the local community, but the same

> accusation could be made towards most British

> ex-pats (or plenty of Brits at home to be

> honest).

This is pretty fair.

The irony is that (reading various posts) I reckon Tony has probably made more of an effort to integrate (practically, on a day-to-day basis, ie.. for real and not just 'in principle') with an ethnically diverse population than half the people preparing right now to queue-up and denounce him as some kind of send-em-home pointy-hatted loon.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

*Bob* Wrote:

>

> The irony is that (reading various posts) I reckon

> Tony has probably made more of an effort to

> integrate (practically, on a day-to-day basis,

> ie.. for real and not just 'in principle') with an

> ethnically diverse population than half the people

> preparing right now to queue-up and denounce him

> as some kind of send-em-home pointy-hatted loon.

Here comes the truth "Bob"...I have no need to lie, as i "try" not to do "defensive"...

The Guy I had a walk with for 2 hours in Footscray Meadows with our Dogs yesterday was Born in Manchester of Jamaican Parents in 1960, great Guy who moved from Vauxhall 3 years ago.

In One hour my Black friend Kevin is driving from Grove Park to spend 2/3 hours here.

My Sierra Leonese Ladyhelper is coming tomorrow Morning (partly to see her Dog which she gave me 4 years ago)_

My Jamaican g'f who lives with me most of the week is returning Friday Evening.....I actually have, as many, Non British and Non-White friends as I have.............................that does NOT stop me noticing or commenting on how London is changing b4 my very eyes.:))....

I just wish I had more Irish M8's though!

Sean, Seannnnn...I want to show you my "dark" side...B)B)

[Mark]

Tony, if you were the Mayor of London for a day how would you change London? What policies would you put in place to make it better?

[SeanMacGabhann]

Tony feel free to comment away, but given that London has always, and will always change before all of our very eyes it still begs the question... and??

[Tony.London Suburbs]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> not rreeeeeaaly Tony

>

> You keep asking my how Irish people in GENERAL

> would feel. And then I tell you that most Irish

> people I know/observe are happy with the influx

> and changes

Fair enough but is this because the influx are not significantly changing the culture of the area?

Do you think they would feel differently if only 21% of the schoolchildren, in say Dublin, were of a traditionally Irish background.

Most Suburbanites are happy with the influx and changes in our area recently but if they became a "diminishing" minority they might have a different view, I feel.

And you say you love the Irish - but as you point out that is YOUR view. It is clearly not a view shared by many of your compatriots not that long ago was it? Why would that be? Is it possible that for some people change is inherently a bad thing and if that intolerance of change manifests itself in a dislike of "other" nationalities, should it be tolerated? If you like the Irish so much, how many arguments did you have with London friends who prohibited them from staying in boarding

> houses? As neighbours?

Blimey! I was accused of having "chips on my shoulders" but you keep bangin' on about the "No Blacks/Irish (don't forget "Dogs" as well (!))....of course that was DISGRACEFUL..OBVIOUSLY DISGUSTING...none of that had anything to do with me Sean and I do not know any Landlords, past or present.

People don't like "change", as a rule, 'tis true particularly as the change affects the culture that they are familiar with and probably, love.

>

> And what traits of the irish do you ascribe ?

>

> "Gregarious, Generous, Fun, Friendly, Love a Drink

> and a Gamble">

> Well blow me over if that doesn't sound like most people from most countries I know. I lived in East Ham for several years on a street where (despite the breakdown of the borough's population above) it so happend I was one of the only white faces on the block. What did I find? I found most of the Asian and African natives to be sociable, friendly and tolerant. We got on juuuust fine. I didn't see any problems. It was safe. What is the problem exactly?

Don't give me that bland "we are all the same" hogwash, load of old baloney.

Of course INDIVIDUALS share similar traits but as an Irishman said only yesterday at Cheltenham, "we are a Nation of Gamblers"...thats a CLEARLY identifiable trait, as opposed to The Welsh, for example.

Do you agree Sean?

>

> So "straigt enough for you Seanster?" - nope. What appears to be the case is you have a problem with some nationalities. Tell me again wat you said to people in the 70s who denigrated irish people and tell me why you aren't doing the same for other nationalities?

I did not say anything to anyone about anyone that I recall Sean.

As I've covered "the Irish" and maybe not given the answer you expected (or hoped for??) you have moved the Goalposts!

I note you have extended the net wider.:)