Is Alleyn's School a cuckoo?

[intexasatthe moment]

I found this

" The considerable resources that public schools put into justifying their charitable status ? for example, ?365m a year in support for poorer pupils, according to Harman ? is an index of what they must know they gain by being charities. It reveals the scale of the effective state subsidy. "

from the above article ,particularly interesting .

[miga]

.

[Gubodge]

Having just been visiting secondary schools in the area, I think anyone in the area who is struggling and scrimping to educate their children privately is, tbh, a bit foolish. We have some fantastic state schools in this area. Hilly Fields, Kingsdale, Charter, Harris, Sydenham School. Leave private to the bankers and oligarchs, send your kids to the local schools and use the money you've saved to enrich them through music, art, sport or travel.

[Polmoche]

Gubodge Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Having just been visiting secondary schools in the

> area, I think anyone in the area who is struggling

> and scrimping to educate their children privately

> is, tbh, a bit foolish. We have some fantastic

> state schools in this area. Hilly Fields,

> Kingsdale, Charter, Harris, Sydenham School.

Yes we do - IF your child can get in. Kingsdale as we know is a lottery, HF you must live quite close these days - last place admitted on distance has been as tight as 600m, Haberdashers in one band was 170m...

[mako]

Agree with gubodge-very sensible

[Henry_17]

rahrahrah,

Aside from the point miga raises, I found myself disappointed as a DM fan to see his use of the highly questionable rhetorical device involving the children of foreigners. I doubt as a dyed in the wool Observer columnist he really believes that offspring of foreign plutocrats benefitting from a given posited subsidy is any more objectionable than those of domestic plutocrats doing so.

Henry

[Earl Aelfheah]

I wasn't particularly taking a position on DMs article, just thought I'd share it as relevant to the thread.

[????]

DM - rich, middle-class, lefty in not wanting others to have the priveliges he did shocker

[James Barber]

I've checked with Heber School and they hold their annual sports day at Alleyn's sports field every year.

No mention of asking for years to use Alleyn's sports field and being refused.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Quids - I don't think that's fair. He isn't calling for the abolition of private schools, just the removal of their charitable status (in fact I wouldn't even go this far - he's really just questioning said status). I don't really agree that the nationality of students is relevant, but do think charitable status is odd. The fact that he went to a private school is irrelevant to his having a view IMO. If he hadn't been to private school, people would say he didn't know what he was talking about, or that it was jealousy - he has, so he is accused of wanting to pull up the drawbridge. Name calling and attacks on an individual doesn't engage with the debate. It's notable on this thread that many of those 'defending' (if that's the right phrase) private schools have resorted to this - referring to peoples' general politics, social background, or claiming they are jealous, or have a chip on their shoulder. It suggests to me a paucity of good arguments in defence of charitable status.

[keane]

James - as I said earlier - yes Heber are allowed to use the Alleyns field ONCE a year. They have also been asking for 6 years if they can use it more frequently, the answer has ALWAYS been no. I can provide you with detailed information if you would like to know more.

[Curmudgeon]

keane Wrote:

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> James - as I said earlier - yes Heber are allowed

> to use the Alleyns field ONCE a year. They have

> also been asking for 6 years if they can use it

> more frequently, the answer has ALWAYS been no. I

> can provide you with detailed information if you

> would like to know more.

I agree and remember all too well how unavailable Alleyn's facilities were to local schools over the last 10 years or so

A field one day a year for a couple of years when the school is closed does not fulfil charitable status requirements in my opinion

[BrandNewGuy]

Curmudgeon Wrote:

> A field one day a year for a couple of years when

> the school is closed does not fulfil charitable

> status requirements in my opinion

But it's not your opinion that matters, is it? As has been pointed out umpteen times, this is not a test of charitable status. You might not like that (and I'm not sure I do either), but that's the way it is.

[Curmudgeon]

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Curmudgeon Wrote:

>

> > A field one day a year for a couple of years

> when

> > the school is closed does not fulfil charitable

> > status requirements in my opinion

>

> But it's not your opinion that matters, is it? As

> has been pointed out umpteen times, this is not a

> test of charitable status. You might not like that

> (and I'm not sure I do either), but that's the way

> it is.

And let's not argue against the status quo eh?

My opinion matters to me :D

[DaveR]

Re the Mitchell article, the fact that charitable status comes with tax breaks does not mean that private schools overall get a public subsidy. The ?365m in bursaries is a complete red herring - just the saved cost to the state of educating the 600,000 odd kids in private schools is around ?3 billion annually. Unsurprisingly, the Grauniad appears unfussed by the economic illiteracy.

"It's notable on this thread that many of those 'defending' (if that's the right phrase) private schools have resorted to this - referring to peoples' general politics, social background, or claiming they are jealous, or have a chip on their shoulder. It suggests to me a paucity of good arguments in defence of charitable status."

Re this, perhaps a Freudian slip - "defending private schools..". If the debate is about private schools in general (and many of the posts on this thread have ranged far wider than the issue of charitable status) then general politics and social background are inevitably relevant. Even the charitable status argument is essentially political - how many of those arguing in favour of public schools losing their charitable status are also having a pop at the RSPCA for wasting so much cash on ill-advised hunting prosecutions? Everybody has their own idea of what charity means; charity law has to be a little more certain and specific.

[James Barber]

From an operational point of view, and I'm sure this could be resolved, having adults and children from other schools who Alleyn's have't CRB or whatever the new TLA is for this now would mean they need extra staff on hand to ensure child safety.

One way around this would be to ensure the fields are used at different times. But I can understand an initial H&S excuse on these grounds.

They'd also need to check insurances.

But the way to resolve tihs isn't via this forum.

My earlier post was written after checking with the Headteacher of Heber School.

[Earl Aelfheah]

DaveR Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Re this, perhaps a Freudian slip - "defending

> private schools..". If the debate is about

> private schools in general (and many of the posts

> on this thread have ranged far wider than the

> issue of charitable status) then general politics

> and social background are inevitably relevant.

> Even the charitable status argument is essentially

> political - how many of those arguing in favour of

> public schools losing their charitable status are

> also having a pop at the RSPCA for wasting so much

> cash on ill-advised hunting prosecutions?

> Everybody has their own idea of what charity

> means; charity law has to be a little more certain

> and specific.

It's not a Freudian slip, I deliberately put it in inverted commas and said 'if that is the right phrase', because I actually don't think anyone is attacking private schools. However, there are individuals who are being defensive of private schooling generally, which is why I stated it in the qualified terms I did. General background may shape one's perspective on a topic, but it doesn't change the quality or otherwise of their arguments - calling people names - lefty (used as a pejorative), 'chip on your shoulder', 'Jealous Guardianista' etc. is not engaging with an argument, but mocking an individual.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Individual policies can always be debated, but I doubt many people would argue that the impact of the RSPCA is not largely positive and therefore worthy of public support.

Whatever your personal view, you would have to agree that there is less consensus with regards the impact of Public Schooling.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Actually, to be fair, I think I may have got muddled up with one of the other two threads which were discussing Public Schools more generally. I'll get my coat.

[PlayfieldCresRes]

Whilst I'm all for having a bash at private schools when the opportunity presents itself - Keane may I respectfully say that Heber is not the only primary school in the area that would benefit from access to the fields at Alleyn's, or for that matter any of the JAGS or Dulwich College facilities.

And of course there may be other local school use, community groups, charitable activities that use the Alleyn's facilities that you are unaware of because it doesn't directly concern you or your interests.

If this is a matter of access to fields has anyone asked about using the St Olaves and St Saviours ground which is next to Greendale/JAGS which, as I see it, is largely under unused and gated off?

*puts on tin hat, crawls back under rock*

[LondonMix]

Private schools are non for profit organisations. Why should they be taxed?

[mikeb]

Alleyns publishes its accounts online.

http://apps.charitycommission.gov.uk/Accounts/Ends71/0001057971_AC_20130731_E_C.pdf

In 2013, Alleyns saw a net increase in total funds last year of ?4.3m of which about ?0.7m is a pension gain, ?1.4m was unrealised gains on market value of investments and about ?1.3m was a Dulwich Estate Capital distribution.

The schools seems to have received about ?3m from the Estate in total (note 3) and total bursaries were ?0.7m (note 2). Scholarships were an additional ?0.5m.

Of the costs, ?0.7m is depreciation on land & buildings. ?0.25m spent on non-pupil catering.

On cash, ?3.3m net operating cash inflow before ?1.3m of capex.

[Mabel2001]

My boyfriend, born and bred in Camberwell, was given a scholarship at Alleyns on academic merit, and says it changed his life.

[brezzo]

The St Olaves & St Saviours field is used five days per week, by students from St Saviour's & St Olaves School

[sillywoman]

My husband born and bred in Camberwell was given a scholarship to Alleyns on academic merit and says it was pretty horrible always being the poor boy. He never wanted to invite friends home. Interestingly he's not in touch with any of his friends from his school days now.

Also, his scholarship was in the days when Alleyns had to provide a certain number of full scholarships for local children - so it could did something for it's local community. That's not been the case for many a year now.