Is Alleyn's School a cuckoo?

[Monkey]

Well we could afford it but decided to change our lives around, work less and spend more time with mini monkey.

I'll let you in on a little secret: kids at state school do learn to read and write and more! They do, they really do!

[hpsaucey]

Green Goose Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

'I guess anyone would pay for private education if

> they could afford it ( eg Clegg and Dionne Abbott

> et al) so I hazard a guess you are actually saying

> it's unfair because your income doesn't cover this

> on top of all the things you want including

> holidays, car, fashion, mobiles, meals out etc

> etc.'

You guess wrong then. I would not choose a private education for my children - my choice is state schooling regardless of whether or not I could afford a private school.

HP

[NewWave]

My experience is that so much depends on the actual childs ambition and willingness to learn.

I went to a very famous highly regarded girls school full of kids from extremely wealthy families. Quite a lot of these kids in late teens ended up just dropping out, doing drugs going travelling etc etc almost as a backlash to their parents pushiness and ambition.

When I went to college (Or Uni as people now annoyingly call it) there was a strong contingent of state educated students, and in fact only a handful went to private schools.

In fact where I work now one of my colleagues has a Phd having grown up on a sink estate in Manchester, with a single parent.He is the first member of his entire family who has ever gone onto any form of higher education.And he attended a pretty grim comprehensive school.

I actually find it quite annoying when people consider that paying for an education is investing in their child's future.

The best investment any parent can make is to be there for their child, encouraging them and nurturing them.

I abhor pushy hot house parenting as I've seen it bite so many people on the bum. and screw up many kids teenage years.

I always wonder are the parents genuinely doing it for their child? or is it just to keep up with the jonses.

[Miacis]

We could afford to go private. We have chosen not to.

I abhor private schools. They perpetuate privilege and inequality of opportunity which is bad for everyone in our community rich and poor. Every child has the right to a great education. Many of our state schools provide this, all should.

Asking for tax breaks to ensure your child is educated apart from the whole community is farcical.

As for charitable status for these schools when they refuse to share their playing fields, we should challenge this as a community.

[Peckhamrye]

Yes, if there are doubts about them fulfilling their obligations as a charity then report them to the Charity Commission.

[Mike Dodd]

You should read Dad of 4 thread

[SLad]

I would love to read that thread but can't find it: can you post a link please?

(writes Oxford graduate whose education suffered so badly from going through a comp school system with...pause for gasp...not even private tutoring)

[cle]

There are shades of grey here. Not all schools (private or state) are equal.

Alleyn's is not Eton - it's a day school, co-ed, inner city and next to an estate etc...

Just a chance for the usual tedious class warriors to bang their drums.

[Earl Aelfheah]

It's true that not all independent schools are the same and that Alleyn's is certainly more inclusive and outward looking than many. This discussion has moved into a more general conversation about the place of private education however which is a valid one. It's ridiculous to invoke 'class warriors' and 'drum banging', which is just a way of closing down a legitimate debate.

[hpsaucey]

cle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> There are shades of grey here. Not all schools

> (private or state) are equal.

>

> Alleyn's is not Eton - it's a day school, co-ed,

> inner city and next to an estate etc...

>

> Just a chance for the usual tedious class warriors

> to bang their drums.

'usual tedious class warriors' - which are they then???

[bawdy-nan]

In what way is Alleyns more inclusive I wonder? I would be very interested to hear how many of its intake come from the state sector and are not tutored to pass the exams and interviews which appear to be careful constructed to keep the riff raff out. I don't buy the bursaries argument when the examples given here are for bursaries offered to the formerly wealthy suddenly down on their luck.

I've a gut reaction against these schools but can hear the arguments about their and the Dulwich Estate's impact on the local area for good. I suppose I'd like to see more of it. I can't see at all how the charitable status is justified.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Well it's more inclusive than some very exclusive public schools such as Eton for example. Of course, that may not be saying a lot.

[*Bob*]

I don't think you need to go as far as Eton. It's a fair bit different to Dulwich College IMO.

Of course if you're against the idea on principle it doesn't make any difference.

[Zebedee Tring]

One of the things that I find amazing is the number of people who pay for private education but who then also pay for extra private tuition. If the private education is so good, why the need for extra tuition?

If you can afford it, then it's better to send your kids to a good comprehensive school and, like us, supplement it with a bit of private tutoring, thereby saving some money for funding the university education that lucky baby boomers like me got for free at one of the best universities in the UK.

[bawdy-nan]

I'm not in principle rather by gut but I'm open to arguments ...

Practically I think that these schools, and the estate, should be more respectful of their original purpose and should also be working harder to have an impact locally.

There are absolutely loads of ways they could do this from sharing facilities to sharing ideas to integrating pupils via sports / clubs / theatrical productions; to obeying traffic laws (and, for example, not using Townley Road like their own private car park to the detriment and danger of other road users, cars and cyclists); to promoting cycle paths so that ALL children can get to school safely by bike rather than just their pupils (I;m thinking specifically here of the unpaved paths on Hunts Slip Road which could be made into a cycle path for Kingsdale pupils use whereas at the moment the massive urban tractor dropping off / double parking etc and stony paths mean cycling is very dangerous).

If their purpose is genuinely education and charitable rather than service provision to a wealthy elite then they really ought to be doing more to promote that aim. But if, as other posters have mentioned, they are in the business of running a business and servicing the requirements of people who wish to buy those services then that is fine but they shouldn't be afforded the advantages of charitable status.

[EDLove]

Miacis Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> We could afford to go private. We have chosen not

> to.

>

> I abhor private schools. They perpetuate privilege

> and inequality of opportunity which is bad for

> everyone in our community rich and poor. Every

> child has the right to a great education. Many of

> our state schools provide this, all should.

Is this view of private schools based on your own experience, having gone to one? The private schools I know of are actually very community-minded and actively encourage students to become involved in charity/volunteer work (whether in the UK or abroad). It would be incredibly difficult to go through private school without having been part of some philanthropic activity. And, of course, there are thousands upon thousands of privately educated individuals who continue to be the largest contributors to charity.

'Inequality of opportunity' seems an odd reason not to send your children to private school. You could agrue that simply by living in Dulwich, London, the UK, Europe you are also perpetuating inequality of opportunity. You are fortunate that you are able to afford to live in an area which offers good state schools - many don't have this opportunity.

[Mike Dodd]

Its headline is Dulwich Estates

[*Bob*]

Going to a fee-paying school; being able to afford to buy a house for a million quid near to a favoured primary; going state but paying for extra private tuition..

All fine lines / slippery slopes, depending on your point of view.

[cle]

rahrahrah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's true that not all independent schools are the

> same and that Alleyn's is certainly more inclusive

> and outward looking than many. This discussion has

> moved into a more general conversation about the

> place of private education however which is a

> valid one. It's ridiculous to invoke 'class

> warriors' and 'drum banging', which is just a way

> of closing down a legitimate debate.

I don't think it's a way of shutting down a debate - it's a way of framing an alternative perspective, making the point about not all private schools being the same (which you acknowledge) and adding a bit of depth and colour to what has been quite a black & white, one-sided discussion.

I can't see that all this shrill "I abhor..." nonsense isn't an attempt to shut down debate or indeed, chippy shouldered class whinging. Ironically, with a turn of phrase so pompous to make an Etonian English 'master' roll his eyes.

[Earl Aelfheah]

EDLove Wrote:

> 'Inequality of opportunity' seems an odd reason

> not to send your children to private school. You

> could agrue that simply by living in Dulwich,

> London, the UK, Europe you are also perpetuating

> inequality of opportunity. You are fortunate that

> you are able to afford to live in an area which

> offers good state schools - many don't have this

> opportunity.

The world isn't fair, so why would you care about fairness?

[Earl Aelfheah]

cle Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't think it's a way of shutting down a debate

> - it's a way of framing an alternative

> perspective, making the point about not all

> private schools being the same (which you

> acknowledge) and adding a bit of depth and colour

> to what has been quite a black & white, one-sided

> discussion.

>

> I can't see that all this shrill "I abhor..."

> nonsense isn't an attempt to shut down debate or

> indeed, chippy shouldered class whinging.

> Ironically, with a turn of phrase so pompous to

> make an Etonian English 'master' roll his eyes.

Saying you abhor a system which is the focus of debate, is simply stating a strong a view on the topic under discussion. Talking about 'the usual class warriors banging a drum' is dismissive. It's playing the man, not the ball. There's a clear difference, to me at least.

[Earl Aelfheah]

I don't think there's been any 'chippy shouldered class whinging', I think there's been some generally reasoned debate on both sides.

[cle]

I didn't play a man though, I didn't single anyone out (except the histrionics of 'I abhor' which I stand by).

[gge12]

Speaking from experience it's an awful school full of staff that are protected by the private school bubble to do and say as they pleased. Some of the behaviour i witnessed from was atrocious and wouldn't be tolerated in the state system.

I remember a particular specimen who was a year 7 tutor who had a habit of 'accidentally' walking in to girls changing areas and making inappropriate comments.

These places are designed to prioritise the child prodigies and marginalise what's left using 'sets' for each subject. I've noticed they have erected higher fences and invested in security systems keep local people out and maintain their white middle/upper class surroundings.

The few bursary places were, as mentioned, initiated to appease their charity status and represent only a tiny fraction of students. I believe these institutions are inherently elitist and racist and i was so relieved to get out of there to a normal state comprehensive where i felt valued and respected. I was able to get on to university and a career which i feel would have been very difficult had i remained.

[Miacis]

Couple of quick points:

Being inner city and next to an estate doesn't necessarily make a school more inclusive - the ethnic/economic mix of these schools is strikingly different to our local state schools. It would be good if these schools actually published data in the same way that state schools do so we could look at the facts - unfortunately they don't. Nonetheless you can observe the mix.

Many, many young people do charitable/voluntary work - from both state and private. Not seen any evidence to say that indep school pupils do more. Interesting study reported here that found that poor people actually give proportionately more to charity http://www.theguardian.com/society/2001/dec/21/voluntarysector.fundraising