General Election 2015

[JohnL]

Don't really think that worked :)

[Tarot]

SO Blair is worried thousands would be out of work if we leave the E.U.

It would mean their would be no more work for the extreme mass of immigrants from free borders will not get

any work.

Ha what a shame, maybe the Brits will get work at last.

Only economic kaos for the already crumbling E.U.dictatorship.

[Blah Blah]

And the millions of brits currently working in the EU will be sent back to replace the immigrants we boot out. You are such an idiot Tarot. No migration from the EU also will mean no migration to the EU for UK nationals. 56% of our exports are to the EU. Exports that will be hit with a trade tariff if we leave the EU making the suppliers no longer competitive to EU importers. And just to put that in a context you can understand - 3.5 million jobs in the UK are reliant on exports to the EU, 2.5 million of which are directly affected and 900,000 indirectly. That is what Blair is worried about, and rightly so imo.

[Loz]

I am completely and thoroughly for staying in Europe - indeed, it would be utter madness and economic suicide to leave. The City would be decimated as all the major global corporations up sticks and head to Berlin and the cost to the wider economy would be huge.

But, I would like to see a referendum just to shut the anti-EU people up for a decade or so. All of the major parties would be on the same side, so it would be very doubtful that the result would go the wrong way once the full implications of an exit were thrashed out in public. Cameron would have to keep the Tories firmly under the whip, though.

[Otta]

Tarot please tell us exactly why leaving the EU would be a good thing?

No accusations of racism from me, just can't believe anyone would genuinely think this country would be better off.

There is work out there if the Brits would either qualify to do it, or accept getting their hands dirty occasionally.

[JohnL]

it used to be Michael Foot and Old Labour who wanted to leave EU and NATO.

The link from last summer shows how politics has changed in 6 months (except

the hatred of Ed Balls)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ed-miliband/10941419/Ed-Miliband-campaigned-for-Britain-to-leave-EU.html

[Jeremy]

If Alan Sugar is the best Labour can do, they're in trouble...

[miga]

.

[Henry_17]

Blah,

Why do you believe that business in banking is the same as ever?

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> That in work benefits bill is up Loz. It has a lot

> to do with low wages and increasing costs of

> living, namely rent.

>

> I disagree with you Loz in that a growing economy

> where tax receipts, productivity and exports are

> down, it reflects the scenario that what growth

> there is, is being hoovered up by a few sectors

> (finance being one). So for me, it is not the sign

> of a healthy economy at all. Low wages, poor

> exorts, productivity etc, affect things like

> national debt. We are still borrowing more than we

> did in 2010. We've done nothing to change the

> aspects of the economy that caused the crash.

> Business in banking is the same as ever, and we

> gave them billions of our money to get back

> there.

>

> What I would say is that these are the problems of

> an economy that has been in decline for the last

> 50 years. And yes Osbourne has been as lucky as

> Gordon Brown was unlucky to be the scapegoat of a

> massive global crash. Well that's just the ways it

> goes. But to think for one minute that Osbourne is

> delivering anything but more of the same, when we

> all know that more of the same hasnt worked for at

> least two decades, is fantasy.

>

> We think the last financial crash was bad. We are

> heading for something far worse unless we get back

> in control of our wealth. There isn't much left to

> give away to foreign shareholders tbh. The free

> market does NOT take care of all. the cost of

> housing IS out of control, the over 65's are going

> to become even more expensive to the state

> finances etc and no-one in government or in

> opposition really seems bothred enough by any of

> it. But then it seems, nor are we!

[Otta]

A personal anecdote which shows the banks are still the scum thyey always were...

Last year we bought a flat using the "help to buy" scheme. This means we haven't borrowed a penny of the gov, but if we default they'd cover 15% of our deposit. The whole idea being that it would take away the risk to banks lending.

So, surely the banks should have offered us the same mortgage deals they offered to anyone with a 20% deposit, right?

Hell no, we had ONE mortgage available to us, take it or leave it, and we're paying 5.5%.

They're scum.

[Henry_17]

Otta,

That must have been frustrating, and added to stress that many first time buyers would have experienced these past few years as they paid high rents and cost of living inflation while trying to save for a deposit as house prices ran up. It's also clearly bad risk based pricing from the bank if they do not differentiate pricing between different FTBs since clearly they will all have range of credit quality.

I would disagree that this implies the sector is scum, but can understand why you would have a strong feeling given that experience. Even if you do make this conclusion though, I don't believe it is productive to view banks as the root cause of the complex and myriad problems in the economy, as I beleive Blah Blah does from his post, and many politicians on the left certainly do with their rhetoric.

[Blah Blah]

Hmm Henry,

Who lied to fix their Libor rates? Just remind us of that again!

I really hate it when any criticism of the far from perfect banking system is mentioned in the same sentence as the left. This is not about left or right. It's about fixing the flaws in regulation that allow our free marketeers to break rules and be wreckless in the pursuit of personal profit. A wrecklessness that has had a devastating impact on people who had nothing to do with any of it.

We have an economic system, or rather a form of capitalism (because there are many forms of that) in place atm that does not work in the interests of ordinary people. And we seem to live in an age where those who do best by it, decry any criticism. Like there can't possibly be a better system. This is nonsense.

Any changes in regulation to the banking industry have merely tinkered at the edges. It's worth remembering that after the 1930's Wall Street Crash, many measures were brought in to prevent that happening again. As soon as they were got rid of, from the 80s onwards, we've had nothing but boom and bust and through that, an ongoing decline in the value of wages and labour (for most people) whilst the value of capital assets has rocketted. In fact, home ownership is now the only means of upward social mobility for most people, and even that is becoming a pipe dream for the youngest generations. Banks have been totally complicit in that process.

[Henry_17]

Blah,

To answer your question, a small number of employees relative to the total lied to fix libor rates, primarily for their personal benefit. A small number also seemingly carried out similar fraud over gold and foreign exchange prices. And then these employees were investigated, fired, disqualified from the industry, and in some cases arrested, criminally charged, and are currently standing trial. Then large fines were levied on thier employers, which their colleagues and bank shareholders were allowed to share in, provisions for fines at the UK's five largest banks were double the bonus pool last year.

Say what you want about whether you find that adequate, but that would be a statement about position not direction or degree of change, which is what I quoted you on earlier. Clearly there has been a significant increase in legal and regulatory scrutiny of banks since the crises, as well as a material reduction in scale and type of activity (lower headcount, far less prop trading).

FWIW I would support a renewed glass steagal type seperation of utility banking from investment banking as I think it would reduce but not eliminate the risk of taxpayer bailouts. I don't think this, or any other changes to the banking system can be the silver bullet to inequality that you seem think it could be however.

Getting back OT of the thread, I don't see how you can take issue with associating criticism of banks with the left when Labour have clearly have a clearly adopted a more hostile rhetoric to banks and the broader finance sector than other parties.

[Otta]

Henry_17 Wrote:

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> I would disagree that this implies the sector is scum,

You're right of course, but they do do some things which just seem really shitty to people with the least cash. Especially frustrating when the gov have put in safeguards for them but they still shaft you.

[Blah Blah]

You really think the Labour Party are a party of the left these days Henry? But that wasn't my point. Talking in terms of left and right is often used to dismiss the point. I'd rather talk in terms of fairness and accountability.

On the wreckless actions of some of those within the banking industry, we are talking about people high up the chain on the whole, with the kind of power that had serious consequences for billions of people accross the world. At the core of that is a culture and mentality the says profit over people, greed at any cost. Many experts warned a long time ago about the dangers of what was going on. We live in a culture of Milton Friedman Free Market economics. What have we learned? That the masters of the Universe can't be trusted to behave responsibly with that free market.

[Seabag]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> DulwichMum is the leader of The Absolutely

> Fabulous Party and I am the Sheriff.. under a

> Twitter pseudonym

>

> (until she tells me otherwise)

>

>

> My main responsibility is maintaining the Ducking

> Stool. Currently in storage .

>

> Awaiting my instructions.. Long list of

> prospective candidates.

>

> DulwichFox

Tie yourself to said 'ducking stool' along with a pallet of bricks

Submerse in pond and await instructions

[Jah Lush]

"The price noble men pay for their indifference to social affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato

[BrandNewGuy]

Plato also believed in slavery and rule by an elite of philosopher kings. I'm choosing not to follow his political beliefs.

[JohnL]

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

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> Plato also believed in slavery and rule by an

> elite of philosopher kings. I'm choosing not to

> follow his political beliefs.

The "Go back to Eton" guy maybe thinks the Tories do too :)

[Jah Lush]

Indeed. "Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravaging wolves." Matthew 7.15.

I'm bloody rent a quote this morning.

[Jah Lush]

JohnL Wrote:

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> BrandNewGuy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Plato also believed in slavery and rule by an

> > elite of philosopher kings. I'm choosing not to

> > follow his political beliefs.

>

>

> The "Go back to Eton" guy maybe thinks the Tories

> do too :)

He himself looked a right posh bastard. I reckon he went to Harrow.

[JohnL]

Jah Lush Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JohnL Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > BrandNewGuy Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Plato also believed in slavery and rule by an

> > > elite of philosopher kings. I'm choosing not

> to

> > > follow his political beliefs.

> >

> >

> > The "Go back to Eton" guy maybe thinks the

> Tories

> > do too :)

>

> He himself looked a right posh bastard. I reckon

> he went to Harrow.

Would explain him hating Eaton

[Jah Lush]

It's Eton not Eaton, JohnL.

[david_carnell]

There's an apocryphal tale of Churchill standing at a urinal next to another politician and then leaving. The other chap says "I don't know what they taught at your school, but at Eton we were taught to wash our hands." Churchill turns and says, "At Harrow they taught us not to piss on our hands."

[Earl Aelfheah]

Cameron's pledge to extend 'Right to Buy' to Housing Association tenants is probably the most depressing thing I've heard during this entire campaign.