One in Ten

[Huguenot]

No RosieH, I didn't mean that ;-)

[RosieH]

Roger that ;-) (that's a special one just for you Huguenot - I don't usually do the faces - they make my arse clench)

[annaj]

Huguenot, sorry, had to run out to lunch just as we reached that precious middle ground and now I have to work, but I'm glad we made it.

As I understand it, Amnesty supports the 1 in 10 campaign relating to services for women in Britain, but is also running its own campaign about rape as a weapon of war along with its many other human rights campaigns.

Right, got to go, lives to save and disease to stamp out and all that...

[dulwichdreadlocks]

DaveR Wrote:

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>

>

> I guess this is my issue - is rape 'common', and

> is it much more common than people think?

At least half the women I know have been raped (and obviously not all women who've been raped are even going to admit it). Is that common enough for ya?

[LegalEagle-ish]

I don't want to upset anyone here, but do the people who say they don't know many women who might fit into the one in ten statistic think it might be possible that they are not the kind of people women they know who have been through these things would want to confide in?

I am serious when I say that most of the women I know well have at some time in their life been attacked, sexually assaulted or raped by men they were either dating, living with or knew in some other capacity.

I'm really shocked that some of you do not know how common this is.

But I also know men who have been stabbed or beaten by a gang of guys - not as many as the women I know who were victims, but quite a few still. It may be a class thing, because most of the people I know well are not middle class, so have had a rougher experience of life anyway.

[dulwichdreadlocks]

LegalEagle-ish Wrote:

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> I don't want to upset anyone here, but do the

> people who say they don't know many women who

> might fit into the one in ten statistic think it

> might be possible that they are not the kind of

> people women they know who have been through these

> things would want to confide in?

>

> I am serious when I say that most of the women I

> know well have at some time in their life been

> attacked, sexually assaulted or raped by men they

> were either dating, living with or knew in some

> other capacity.

>

> I'm really shocked that some of you do not know

> how common this is.

>

> But I also know men who have been stabbed or

> beaten by a gang of guys - not as many as the

> women I know who were victims, but quite a few

> still. It may be a class thing, because most of

> the people I know well are not middle class, so

> have had a rougher experience of life anyway.

It IS common in any class. I think there are some people heavily in denial here.

[*Bob*]

It's completely absurd - not to mention insulting - to suggest that within the midst of a group of friends who you haven't even met, that there's guaranteed to be a swathe of abused women, silently carrying on. Absolute bollocks.

[dulwichdreadlocks]

*Bob* Wrote:

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> It's completely absurd - not to mention insulting

> - to suggest that within the midst of a group of

> friends who you haven't even met, that there's

> guaranteed to be a swathe of abused women,

> silently carrying on. Absolute bollocks.

It may be unpleasant, but absurd or untrue: no.

[Huguenot]

The more I look at the data, the more plausible the massively diverging opinions on this thread become.

If the finding that 6% of girls aged 16 to 24 in households with less than 10 grand income had been raped in the last year is right, then that means the average outside that demographic is vanishingly small.

You'd have to assume that this high-incidence demographic group is itself segmented, and that there may well be particular clusters in it that are culturally and socially accustomed to violent conflict resolution and the degradation of women. That could account for DD's convictions.

If that is the case, then plausibly it is the members of those communities who are in denial if they fail to recognise the source of, and the solution to their problems.

[*Bob*]

Huguenot Wrote:

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> You'd have to assume that this high-incidence

> demographic group is itself segmented, and that

> there may well be particular clusters in it that

> are culturally and socially accustomed to violent

> conflict resolution and the degradation of women.

> That could account for DD's convictions.

>

> If that is the case, then plausibly it is the

> members of those communities who are in denial if

> they fail to recognise the source of, and the

> solution to their problems.

Absolutely.

At the very least, coming to the conclusion that it's happening equally everywhere - because that's what happened in your limited experience, is just as absurd as assuming it never happens - because it hasn't happened to anyone you know.

[dulwichdreadlocks]

Huguenot Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> You'd have to assume that this high-incidence

> demographic group is itself segmented, and that

> there may well be particular clusters in it that

> are culturally and socially accustomed to violent

> conflict resolution and the degradation of women.

> That could account for DD's convictions.

>

????

[DaveR]

"*Bob* Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's completely absurd - not to mention insulting

> - to suggest that within the midst of a group of

> friends who you haven't even met, that there's

> guaranteed to be a swathe of abused women,

> silently carrying on. Absolute bollocks.

It may be unpleasant, but absurd or untrue: no."

It's exactly this kind of crap which caused this debate in the first place. Lots of essentially sensible people intuitively think that the 1 in 10 stat is suspect, not least because it seems likely that included in there is conduct very different from rape or sexual assault but that is somehow caught by the definition of 'victimisation'. When people say "that stat is not reflective of my experience" they are patronised as sheltered middle class types, or else the argument falls back on the "non-reported" masses i.e. victims who are willing to take part in a survey but won't have told anyone else - kind of difficult to check. When those on the other side of the debate say "we know loads of women who have been raped or assaulted", this acquires the status of gospel.

This campaign is essentially about priorities - asking people to agree that it is right to spend more money and time on this than other worthy causes - and deliberately overstating your case is not helpful.

[dulwichdreadlocks]

http://www.cwasu.org/page_display.asp?pageid=STATS&pagekey=35&itemkey=37

[dulwichdreadlocks]

UK DataFinding Source Method

59% of young women and 27% of young men have experienced at least one sexually intrusive* incident before the age of 18 Kelly, Regan and Burton, 1991 Survey of 1,244 young people attending Further Education colleges, Britain

21% of young women and 7% of young men have experienced sexual abuse involving physical contact before the age of 18 Kelly, Regan and Burton, 1991 Survey (as above)

Women are between 2 and 3 times more likely to experience sexual abuse than men Kelly, Regan and Burton, 1991 Survey (as above)

14% of abusers were close relatives, 68% were more distant relatives and other previously known persons, 18% were strangers Kelly, Regan and Burton, 1991 Survey (as above)

85% of peer abusers were male and 95% of adult abusers were male Kelly, Regan and Burton, 1991 Survey (as above)

21% of girls and 11% of boys have experienced child sexual abuse** Cawson, Wattam, Brooker and Kelly, 2000 (NSPCC) National representative study of 2,869 young people aged 18-24 years

16% of girls aged 12 or under were sexually abused Cawson et.ac. 2000 NSPCC study

The majority of assaults on girls are committed by known males Kelly et.al., 1991

[DaveR]

So all your stats are essentially based on one survey/one group of connected surveys? - not v. compelling.

[dulwichdreadlocks]

DaveR Wrote:

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> So all your stats are essentially based on one

> survey/one group of connected surveys? - not v.

> compelling.

My bad: men don't really rape. Or when they do, it's only very occasionally and only when the woman is wearing a mini skirt.:X

[DaveR]

from the cwasu website - "independent research....from a feminist perspective"

How is that different from independent research from an independent perspective?

"My bad: men don't really rape. Or when they do, it's only very occasionally and only when the woman is wearing a mini skirt."

No, they do. And sometimes that gets reported to the police, and sometimes they get charged, and sometimes they get convicted. And there are hard, undisputable numbers for each of those. And there are also numbers for women who say in surveys that they have been raped, or sexually assaulted, which may or may not be reliable depending on the methodology. But all of those numbers are less than 1 in 10.

[dulwichdreadlocks]

DaveR Wrote:

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> from the cwasu website - "independent

> research....from a feminist perspective"

>

> How is that different from independent research

> from an independent perspective?

>

> "My bad: men don't really rape. Or when they do,

> it's only very occasionally and only when the

> woman is wearing a mini skirt."

>

> No, they do. And sometimes that gets reported to

> the police, and sometimes they get charged, and

> sometimes they get convicted. And there are hard,

> undisputable numbers for each of those. And there

> are also numbers for women who say in surveys that

> they have been raped, or sexually assaulted, which

> may or may not be reliable depending on the

> methodology. But all of those numbers are less

> than 1 in 10.

So the NSPCC are making their stats up too?

[RosieH]

DaveR Wrote:

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But all of those numbers are less than 1 in 10.

Dave, I really don't want to be sensationalist about this. Even I have been surprised at the extent of experience of other posters on here, but I don't dispute it.

But I just wanted to remind you (gently) that the 1 in 10 statistic is not limited to rape. It encompasses other forms of violence too, so you shouldn't expect to see stats saying 1 in 10 women has been raped.