The Big '20mph Zone' Con

[bawdy-nan]

Here's a response from the council from July last year to the question about enforcing 20mph for cyclists.

http://www.southwark.gov.uk/news/article/1725/response_to_reports_concerning_20mph_limit_and_cyclists

[James Barber]

hi richard tudor,

I like your simple definition with parenthesis impied - "30 mph on busy roads, 20 on residential roads and [roads with] pedestrians on the pavement"

Hi mako,

Across the Dulwich Community Council area - 3 wards- College 3 Lab cllrs, East Dulwuich 2 x Lib Dem + 1 Labour, Village ward 2 tories + 1 Labour. So even locally 5 Labour councillors vs 4 others.

Hi richard tudor / rdyney bews - Clegg & tutuition fees. Didn't you notice Lib Dems are 8% of MPs and both Tories and Labour (who introduced tuition fees having promised not) are in favour of them. We managed to get a deal which is much more progressive than what went before vs. what the tories originally intended. 63% of children from the poorest back grounds in London are no going to universty - a higher proportion than any other social group across England & Wales. UCAS even noted a huge leap in the poorest now going to universities since the change.

Hi Loz,

They haven't included cyclsits - bicycles don't come with speedometers which is why you legally can't charge them for speeding.

[JohnL]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Waiting for the first motorist to try the "my

> engine was off and I was coasting downhill"

> defence!

A friend did that years ago to save petrol

steering lock came on !!!!

[Loz]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Loz Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Waiting for the first motorist to try the "my

> > engine was off and I was coasting downhill"

> > defence!

>

> A friend did that years ago to save petrol

>

> steering lock came on !!!!

The other danger (as I found once, waiting to go into a car park) is your power/hydraulic brakes become rather useless.

Coming into Perth, Australia from the east there is a hill called Greenmount. You can stick a car in neutral and coast down it for the best part of 5km, though you have to keep braking else you would go waaaayy over the speed limit.

[Lowlander]

You don't use any fuel when going downhill (as long as you don't accelerate)!

Sticking it into neutral would use up fuel.

[kford]

I'll repeat my fear that this looks like nothing more than a hey-we're-doing-something distraction from the real causes of fatalities and injuries in the borough. I'd be interested to see the statistics for causes of collisions in Southwark.

I'll wager they reflect the national average:

Failed to look properly 35%

Failed to judge other person's path or speed 18.9%

Careless, reckless or in a hurry 16.2%

Loss of control 14.7%

Poor turn or manoeuvre 14.1%

Travelling too fast for the conditions 10.2%

Slippery road due to weather 10.1%

Pedestrian failed to look properly 7.2%

Sudden braking 7.2%

Following too close 6.7%

Which would suggest that a campaign to get people to pay attention - to think - would have more effect.

I'd much rather those posters say 'PUT YOUR PHONE DOWN', especially as I was nearly knocked off yesterday by a girl in Ford Ka who was texting (she was driving under 20mph, so she probably thought she was 'safe')

And most London fatalities are caused by (usually female) cyclist + tipper truck + roundabout/junction - a sub-20mph collision. Address this first.

[Penguin68]

As many others have said here (including me) the key issue with the speed reduction is not that it will reduce the incidence of accidents (although it might, given longer reaction times) but that it will reduce the severity of any accident - the lower the impact speeds the less the damage - and it appears that impacts (cars on people) are likely to be far more sever at 30mph than at 20mph. I do not expect a significant reduction in the numbers of accidents, but in the severity of injuries. So the 'cause of accident' breakdown that kford has included here is probably irrelevant - yes, similar numbers of accidents will probably occur for a similar number of reasons, the benefit (assuming that the speed limits are eventually kept to) is that the number of deaths and serious (life changing/ limiting) injuries should fall. The more traffic, of course, the more accidents (on average) - but the less speed, the less awful these will be.

[kford]

But they won't happen at all if the primary causes are addressed.

[oimissus]

I have to agree with this last comment - I don't think I often see people driving too fast, but I see someone on their phone pretty much every time I get in the car. I would also like to see some kind of clampdown on cyclists after dark with no lights and no hi-vis, you get a lot of this around Peckham.

I'd be intersted to know how good it is for a car to be driven in 2nd or 3rd gear for 15/20 minutes at a time.

[Lowlander]

oimissus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I have to agree with this last comment - I don't

> think I often see people driving too fast, but I

> see someone on their phone pretty much every time

> I get in the car. I would also like to see some

> kind of clampdown on cyclists after dark with no

> lights and no hi-vis, you get a lot of this around

> Peckham.

>

> I'd be intersted to know how good it is for a car

> to be driven in 2nd or 3rd gear for 15/20 minutes

> at a time.

Most cars are at their happiest being driven at a constant speed between 50 - 60mph on a smooth motorway.

Town driving with its constant gear changing and braking is incredibly wearing no matter what gear you are in.

Which is why a three year old car with 100k on the clock is often in far better condition than a three year old car with 10k on the clock.

[JohnL]

oimissus Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I have to agree with this last comment - I don't

> think I often see people driving too fast, but I

> see someone on their phone pretty much every time

> I get in the car. I would also like to see some

> kind of clampdown on cyclists after dark with no

> lights and no hi-vis, you get a lot of this around

> Peckham.

>

> I'd be intersted to know how good it is for a car

> to be driven in 2nd or 3rd gear for 15/20 minutes

> at a time.

London driving as a whole is not good

20K and new exhaust - because it never gets the chance

to dry out. I just KNOW I'll need a new clutch soon :(

- Toyota Aygo you see.

[wulfhound]

I'd much rather those posters say 'PUT YOUR PHONE DOWN', especially as I was nearly knocked off yesterday by a girl in Ford Ka who was texting (she was driving under 20mph, so she probably thought she was 'safe')

The problem individuals won't see the posters, they're too busy playing with their bl**dy phones. What's needed is not billboards, but police officers.

And most London fatalities are caused by (usually female) cyclist + tipper truck + roundabout/junction - a sub-20mph collision. Address this first.

Most /cyclist/ fatalities. Which, in London, is only about 10-20% of the total.

But they won't happen at all if the primary causes are addressed.

Absolutely true, and we should all be calling on the police and elected officials to up their game in this respect, but I suspect lowering speed limits is far less expensive than an effective (re)-education campaign. Given the current cuts, I'm not sure the police would have the manpower to do it, even if it were politically expedient to do so.

[kford]

Fair point

[Lee Scoresby]

Oo-er, I've done it again on the EDF. Struck a little match, and next thing - -

What a stirrer my mother spawned.

Well, my work here is done [devilish chuckle]

Tiptoe a w a y . . .

LS (sssshhhh)

[Jeremy]

No point pretending the same speed is appropriate for all roads.

20mph (at the very max) is appropriate for parked up residential streets. 30mph is perfectly reasonable for Old Kent Rd, Sydenham Hill, etc.

Should we all be driving at 20mph on the A20 too? How about the M1? After all, a young child could potentially step out into the road. THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!!

[JohnL]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> No point pretending the same speed is appropriate

> for all roads.

>

> 20mph (at the very max) is appropriate for parked

> up residential streets. 30mph is perfectly

> reasonable for Old Kent Rd, Sydenham Hill, etc.

>

> Should we all be driving at 20mph on the A20 too?

> How about the M1? After all, a young child could

> potentially step out into the road. THINK OF THE

> CHILDREN!!!!

The Red roads (like OKR) aren't under Southwark jurisdiction.

They're TFL I think.

Motorways are strange as 80mph is the de facto limit - but does

allowing people to get away with that on motorways mean they think

they can exceed 20/30 in residential areas ?

[first mate]

I had another journey yesterday where many drivers overtook me at great speed and in a reckless manner. Unless the council spend a load of money on enforcement( which they will not want to do) the universal application of 20mph is in reality a farce and one that makes certain roads less safe.

I agree with what others have written about this being election box ticking, if it is not to be stringently enforced it simply creates confusion and frustration on a grand scale.

Even the buses, especially the buses, are ignoring it.

[oimissus]

yes, I gave it a whirl on Denmark Hill/Herne Hill (an utterly ridiculous road to have a 20mph limit on), and most cars weren't doing it, though I wouldn't say any were driving dangerously, in fact it was me driving dangerously I felt, especially as I found it pretty hard to keep under 20, I was on and off the accelerator the whole time and looking at my speedo a lot. So I gave up after a few minutes of that, I felt like I could cause a crash more than prevent one!

[Real_Louisa]

They should start by enforcing a speed limit on the pavements. I've nearly been mowed down three times this week by bloated middle class darlings in their three wheeled mega buggies.

[Jeremy]

.

[twinhunters]

I was over taken by three cyclist in a 20 zone today 😭

[Elephant]

Does anyone know if the speed cameras have been reconfigured for the 20 zone? Eg the one on forest hill rd. It is very confusing as there seems to be no official signs only the flag type southwark signes attached to lampposts and markings on the rd.

[first mate]

The whole thing appears to be a ness.

Labour will soon, come election time, be trumpeting that they have made a safer borough for all by imposition of 20mph, but the reality is different; what actually happens is that a minority try to adhere to it while the majority ignore it. Those that ignore it are inclined to get angry and frustrated if they are stuck behind someone adhering to the limit. There seems to be an increase in overtaking in a reckless way.

The police won't monitor or enforce 20mph, they opposed 20mph on main roads, so the council will have to spend loads of money on cameras at some point. We have to decide if this is money well spent.

[Lowlander]

first mate Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The whole thing appears to be a ness.

>

> Labour will soon, come election time, be

> trumpeting that they have made a safer borough for

> all by imposition of 20mph, but the reality is

> different; what actually happens is that a

> minority try to adhere to it while the majority

> ignore it. Those that ignore it are inclined to

> get angry and frustrated if they are stuck behind

> someone adhering to the limit. There seems to be

> an increase in overtaking in a reckless way.

>

> The police won't monitor or enforce 20mph, they

> opposed 20mph on main roads, so the council will

> have to spend loads of money on cameras at some

> point. We have to decide if this is money well

> spent.

I'm in favour of universal coverage of speed/safety cameras.

The capital outlay is likely to be recouped within days and could be profit making for the council.

Long term it would push down speeding as people become reluctant to pay the fines.

And if you don't want to pay - don't speed.

[JohnL]

Or you prepare for compulsory technology that will keep records and upload to your insurer/employer (if a work car) and others

http://www.motordefencelawyers.co.uk/motoring-news/black-box-technology-can-see-drivers-being-fined-for-speeding/

(I do spy Daily Mail in that excerpt :))

http://www.fleetnews.co.uk/fleet-management/insight-is-technology-the-end-of-speeding-/49375/