The Big '20mph Zone' Con

[david_carnell]

For a mile? Maybe. Maybe not. But at that speed that would be once every 3 mins.

But I don't understand the argument that somehow you can do it at 30mph and not 20mph or that you need to check so often and for such length (as opposed to a split-second glance) that you are actually increasing the danger. It's ludicrous.

I think if it causes drivers to actually be conscious about their speed that's a very good thing. You should be thinking about it. Driving unconsciously at whatever speed you deem appropriate is not a sensible method of deciding speed limits is it?

[JohnL]

I think a sub plan of the 20 mph is to get people off the roads

I only drive now if I'm shopping and its to much without a car.

Edit: maybe even paving the way for electric cars ... or self driving ones :)

[richard tudor]

If you look at all the current plans Southwark keeps bringing out for the roads and parking it certainly looks like it.

Have we forgotten that we pay officers wages and should have a much greater say in what is required not their pet ideas

I suspect most of these plans are just thought up for something to keep themselves busy before they are noticed doing not much at all.

A 20mph is not required but it keeps lots of people busy.

[mako]

david_carnell. you cannot say what fox is saying is utter nonsense as he is stating factually what his own experience is. (unless you are accusing fox of blatantly lying). he is not saying its impossible but that after 40 years of driving and probably greater experience of driving at 30 he finds that easier, something which i agree from my experience and kford has also agreed with. these are genuine experiences and so cannot be utter nonsense. Loz also says he thinks driving at a constant speed of 20 is difficult and i think many cars are not suited to drive at that speed for long distances as it is between gears. if lots of people find it difficult and years of experience go to waste there can be an increase in incidents.

[mako]

lowlander, why do you presume that kford drives at 35-37 in a 30 just because his car isnt suited to driving at 20mph?

[bawdy-nan]

Although most recent census data (2011) indicates that more than approx 60% of households in Southwark don't have a car and less than 8% of the 16 - 74 population use a car to get to work, so, richard tudor, perhaps the shift in focus is the right thing if the council is attempting to serve the wider population

http://planningonline.southwark.gov.uk/DocsOnline/Documents/368563_1.pdf

[kford]

Lowlander Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> kford Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > But one does, David, I tried it last night. You

> > soon creep up to 25-27, especially in an auto

> with

> > a quiet engine. I'd rather my concentration be

> > spent on looking out for danger, don't you?

>

> And I presume in 30 mph zones you drive around 35

> - 37???

No, I drive to suit the conditions.

Actually, I noted that that's around 18-22mph on the side roads of ED, including the likes of Bellenden Rd and the shopping bit of LL (when there's no traffic). On the south circular last night, it was 30. And I still had an Addison Lee MPV right on my tailpipe trying to overtake.

[Loz]

david_carnell Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> For a mile? Maybe. Maybe not. But at that speed

> that would be once every 3 mins.

>

> But I don't understand the argument that somehow you can do it at 30mph and not 20mph or that you

> need to check so often and for such length (as opposed to a split-second glance) that you are

> actually increasing the danger. It's ludicrous.

That's probably true. I know for the motorways with 50mph average speed cameras at roadworks, holding a speed of 47-50 mph over the course of three or four miles is actually quite hard. Drop below 47 or so and drivers behind get annoyed, wander over 50mph for too long and you risk getting your average speed too high. Cruise control would be bliss in these.

[Ghlpc]

I for one welcome the ruling.

30mph was far to quick to catch a glimpse of all those lovely LL yummie mummies 😉

[DulwichFox]

I used to live on Dunstans Road back in the eighties.. Right at the top opposite Dawson Heights.

There were a few accidents and a small child was run over but not badly hurt despite needing

an ambulance and hospital treatment.

The Friends of Dawson Heights and neighbours campaigned at the time for a 20 MPH limit but

Southwark Council rejected the proposal..

So you see I'm not actually against the 20 MPH limit.. I was asking for it 30 years ago...

But you see the technology to catch and fine speeding drivers back then was not available.

So you see the real reason for a 20 MPH limit now is to make revenue..

DulwichFox

[Lowlander]

mako Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> lowlander, why do you presume that kford drives at

> 35-37 in a 30 just because his car isnt suited to

> driving at 20mph?

Because he has trouble driving at 20?

My car protest violently coming down a hill in 2nd gear but is quite happy going up. It depends on the gradient.

[kford]

Lowlander Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> mako Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > lowlander, why do you presume that kford drives

> at

> > 35-37 in a 30 just because his car isnt suited

> to

> > driving at 20mph?

>

> Because he has trouble driving at 20?

>

> My car protest violently coming down a hill in 2nd

> gear but is quite happy going up. It depends on

> the gradient.

I didn't say I had trouble, I can easily drive at 20, and do on side roads without noticing. On main roads, it creeps up to 25+ because that's what suits and that's what I'll continue to do.

[Purplejellybee]

20mph MAX speed in an area with traffic lights, junctions, turnings and people makes sense to me - should mean smoother traffic flow, easier movements, less congestion.

Many of us put our foot down through a clear stretch just to sit in frustration at the long queue at the lights ahead. But maximum speed isn't the same as average speed. And however brilliant a driver you are, if someone or something jumps out in front of you, the speed you are going will affect the outcome.

20mph MAX in a built up area doesn't compare to cruising on the motorway at x or y mph (do people really think they drive at constant speed on journeys in this area?!)

Average speed in rush hour is around 7mph at the moment. Reducing the max speed limit is unlikely to reduce average journey speed but will make the streets safer and calmer if enforced.

[mako]

In rush hour it will be fairly irrelevant as you say-so doesnt justify the large costs involved. But at the other extreme it can have a big impact on journey time through the night. a big point though is that 'safer streets' is very debatable-especially if you have the limits ignored by many and people overtaking when previously they wouldnt have done. My experience is very much the roads have been less safe so far since the changes and that has been repeated by many on this forum.

[Purplejellybee]

Irrelevant for overall journey time for individual drivers. Not irrelevant for overall safety on the streets.

Lower speed limits don't cause selfish, impatient or dangerous driving, but can make those more obvious.

[bawdy-nan]

I've been really enjoying the more relaxed pace of 20 mph. What I've noticed as a plus is that because I'm approaching traffic lights and crossings more slowly I am often able to judge it so that I don't need to stop and certainly my stopping and starting is more gentle. Feels like an appropriate urban mode.

Agree that it takes a bit of adjusting on those roads that seem to offer faster opportunities but I have noticed fewer people overtaking and driving aggressively than I did at first. Maybe people are getting more used to it.

[first mate]

I have to say that my experience is the exact opposite where the behaviour of other drivers is concerned. I would say more people are overtaking in a reckless manner. This applies to the section nearing the Horniman, up Sydenham Hill and onwards. Many drivers getting frustrated, tooting and overtaking at speed. Note that few commercial vehicles, including buses, are adhering to 20mph.

[keekybreeks]

.

[Mugglesworth]

More fuel to the fire - the EDF gets a name check here: http://blog.localdemocracy.org.uk/2009/11/20/local-democracy-and-the-strange-case-of-speed-humps-and-20-mph-zones/. The article deals with 20mph zones only and seems unaware of 20mph limits. What's the difference? See here http://www.20splentyforus.org.uk/limits_or_zones.htm, which also gives a table of the advantages and disadvantages of zones and limits.

Southwark has a mixture of both, with zones being the more established and in residential areas and limits being those recently introduced on more major roads. Brenchley Gardens appears to be a limit at the Forest Hill Road end and a zone at the other end. There is an urban myth that 20mph zones are legally unenforceable but I think this derives from the fact that they are supposed to be "self enforcing" via speed humps, etc. and that ACPO has stated that police will not be enforcing them.

[PeckhamNicola]

I'm not convinced the 20mph zones are intended to make money. My (residential, narrow) road has had a 20mph limit for a number of years now but many idiots still speed up and down it far too quickly. The council seems disinclined to do anything at all to enforce the speed limit even though I and other residents have asked for speed cameras.

[James Barber]

I've received an email pointing out that NICE recommends 20mph to reduce early deaths (children under 15 years of age:

https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ph31/resources/new-nice-guidance-to-reduce-number-of-child-injuries-and-deaths

[rodneybewes]

first mate Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I have to say that my experience is the exact

> opposite where the behaviour of other drivers is

> concerned. I would say more people are overtaking

> in a reckless manner. This applies to the section

> nearing the Horniman, up Sydenham Hill and

> onwards. Many drivers getting frustrated, tooting

> and overtaking at speed. Note that few commercial

> vehicles, including buses, are adhering to 20mph.

It started like that in the City. Lots of beeping etc. Then people calmed down a bit. It's a lot better than it was although you've still got some of the same jackasses racing down narrow streets packed on either side with pedestrians at 30mph, totally inappropriately. More speed cameras would do the trick surely?

[first mate]

James, yes great if the limit is adhered to but so much evidence it is. Go for a spin up Sydenham Hill, early or late, and see for yourself how safe and relaxing it feels to stick to 20 mph.

[make_some_sence]

There where seven objection against the 20mph blanket, which by the way slows down all traffic flowing through the borough. All where rejected by the council in favour of two supporters.

http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/ieDecisionDetails.aspx?ID=4728 .

Bus journeys across the borough are now even slower so that few cyclists/pedestrians can take more risks on the road. Vote these imbeciles out

[make_some_sence]

Here is the S**t used by the overlords at southwark

http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/ieDecisionDetails.aspx?ID=4728 .