Bit of a moan - The Herne Tavern

[shambles]

I don't often moan about stuff but am so irritated by The Herne Tavern that I have to get it off my chest.

Popped down there on Sunday with a heavily pregnant friend and her partner for a spot of lunch. It is the closest pub to our houses and used to go quite a lot before it got gastroed up. Anyway - it was awful. Absolutely heaving with kids under 5 and I mean heaving, all of which seemed to be running around screaming. As for the lunch - you apparently have to book in advance! Is this place now a restaurant or a playgroup. It certainly isn't a boozer.

Now don't get me wrong I used to take my daughter there as it has always had a playground. However, I really miss the old place and for once really resent the way the pubs in ED have so utterly changed. I shall avoid it like the plague from now on which is a shame since it is my local. Humph.

There - feel better now.

[*Bob*]

The Herne is either a nightmare or a godsend - depending on which way you look at it.

You have to book in advance because it's a godsend for people who have young children - and they know it.

Kids under 5 are meant to run round and scream. That's what they do! (I think they call it 'playing' outside of London). Better they're doing it in the Herne at weekends (and therefore can be avoided if you wish) than doing it in the CPT, EDT, Inside 72, Sainsburys, Railway Tracks, Opium Dens etc etc.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I hear you Shambles, but for such a regular on here have you not seen all the postings about the "new" Herne Tavern?

When I used to get the 63 home I stopped in on occassion in the old days and I still do occassionally but wouldn't dream of it at the weekend... pubs in the day/early week evenings weekends

But if you were a parent and wanted to take your kids somewhere other than a fast-foodie joint it makes sense.

If you are a landlord and have seen so many pubs close down to be converted to flats (hello the Heber) and you have a choice of changing the pub or closing down I guess it's no choice at all..

It's not really specific to ED - it's happening up and down the country. We still have a few old-school pubs left - The Castle for example (not around the corner from you Shambles I know) but how often do we actually go in there

[blinder999]

sorry to hear you don't approve Shambles, I popped down on Sunday for a pint with our small boy in tow and thought it was wonderful to be able to sit in the garden with good trad ales. Yes, irritating you have to book for lunch (though it is quality food) - they told me a few weeks ago they were planning on getting a barbecue going in the back bit, but obviously not yet.

At least when your heavily pregnant friend has her baby, she'll have a great child-friendly pub to go to :))

[*Bob*]

The Forest Hill Tav is but a short stroll away if it's old skool you're after..

[Nero]

I think that pubs are no place for children. Adults need adult space. The world (well, middle class Britain) is becoming too child-centred. Children are lovely, inspirational, funny, perplexing, but they don't drink alcohol and don't want to hear adults being true adults, not parents. Pubbish behaviour, and I don't mean getting bladdered and being lairy, is different from other adult behaviour, and should not be compromised because there are under 10s clacking around in their Crocs. Adults need a space to be adults. Likewise, kids need places to be kids. And families need places to be families, and a pub is no place for that, no matter how upmarket and gastro-fied it may be. Would you take your kids to the Plough and let them run amok in there? Hmm. Maybe not. Nero

[blinder999]

Nero, you enjoy The Plough, and I'll enjoy The Herne with my kids on a Sunday, until the licensing laws or The Herne's manager tell me otherwise. Cheers :)-D

[SeanMacGabhann]

Think you'll find it's not a middle class thing - plenty of working class boozers have lots of kids amok in them

I'm not saying it's a good thing - but I do know when I was little I used to LOVE being taken by parents/uncles

Now if I'm in a pub with lots of kids I'm likely to leave - but then they are a lot noiser than I ever was (ahem..)

[Nero]

I know what you mean about being excited about going to a pub with grown ups. But in my case, in the north of England in the 70s, kids were very much an exception. Having a pub that is actually touting for the littl'uns and their parents' business doesn't sit comfortably with me, that's all. I still maintain that Britain is way too child-centred, and the Herne Hill situation would support this view, IMHO. Nero

[Ant]

There aren't really that many pubs full of kids, you know. Surely it's not too much to ask for the odd one or two where you can go with the the family and enjoy a pint and some food.

[*Bob*]

Absolutely agree with Sean..

Anyway - no-one's talking about talking their six-month old down the old Dog and Duck to watch their parents line up shots, arm-wrestle and talk like Jim Davidson. There's always been a place for families and children in pubs (especially 'proper' pubs) - on occasions: it's part of the reason why pubs were divided in 'saloons' and 'bars' (as well as to keep the wife at arm's length, of course).

[mockney piers]

I must admit I've had the odd winge about the Dog on a sunday, too many screaming kids blah blah blah.

But I do realise that it's a weird and rather petty side of British culture. Kids seen and not heard etc. I grew up partly in Spain that's a society that absolutely adores children. I was always made to feel special in restaurants when we went to them. In the seventies and eighties we didn't really do restaurants in this country as we generally weren't even allowed in them until I hit my teens more or less.

Southern europe revolves around the family and just does it better than here (believe me it gets alot wrong, but in this they win hands down).

Sad really. So now I know to avoid the Herne on a sunday if my heads a bit fragile, but I'm glad there's a place where kids can have fun while the bigguns have a pint, and hopefully they can be made to feel special like a young Blinder did.

[SeanMacGabhann]

And while the spectrum of opinion on this is quite broad, I can actually see most peoples side on this - a rare occassion indeed

To return to Shambles opening post tho - any venture to a Sunday pub with a friend that doesn't pan out the way envisaged is never A Good Thing at the time...

For the type of drinks I imagine were in mind I would suggest a nice walk across the park, through the Japanese Gardens to Page 2 on the other side of the Rye - nice and cosy that one and I've never seen a little-un in there. Shame they did away with the pool table mind

[James]

I reckon Nero's clild/adult segregation is a bit strong! One thing I admire about some other European countries is how child-friendly they are compared with the UK. However, I sympathise totally with "Shambles".

For me, it's not about banning kids from these places (there are plenty of adults only pubs after all). It's about parents making sure they behave! And no Bob, I don't think people should be allowing their kids to "run around and scream." For goodness sake, if you have kids (as I do) enjoy them but do not impose their behaviour on other paying punters around you!

Teach them some respect for others. I've always taken my son to restaurants, pubs etc. since he was a toddler but he was made to behave appropriately and respectfully of others. As far as I'm concerned, these middle class idiots who let their kids run riot so as not to "stifle their creativity" or whatever are just as bad as that hoodie on the bus listening to his music out loud.

[Tom]

If you can't stand 5 yr olds - why do you live in ED where they make up 50% of the population??

[Ant]

Now that (James's post) is a good point. If your kids want to run and scream and shout, which they will quite often, then take them to the park. There's a time and a place... different situations require different behaviour and you're doing your kids no favours if you don't teach them that.

[louisiana]

I think the problem with the Herne Tavern now at the weekend is that it's a children ghetto. In another establishment, you might get a few, but here there are dozens, seemingly as many as adults. Every group now makes up major space, what with all the prams. And he noise is...noisy.

[*Bob*]

Ok, I may have overdone it with 'run around and scream' (no need to be so LITERAL, folks)

It was just to make the point that children make noise when they play. Obviously, I wouldn't expect my lad to misbehave or run around end scream in a restaurant (I can do that myself when the bill arrives).

But the Herne has a big back yard with a mini-adventure playground, so a certain amount of noise is inevitable and not out of place.

[Huguenot]

I don't see why this kid thing is an issue:

We're told on another thread that kids under 4 are 5% of the local community, so I'm going to estimate that kids under 8 are 10%. If we assume that the majority have a couple of parents/carers, then around 20% of the local adults have got kids.

Significantly less than 20% of the local hostelries are kid friendly. So those adults would have greater right to complain than any of us?

If you don't like kids then don't go to the Herne, the Vale or the Dog on weekend day-times. Why bother slagging them off, it's like complaining because a cinema doesn't sell DIY gear....

There's 5 times more alternatives that are designed for your needs.

[James]

I suppose the problem is it's a matter of judgment, and we all have different boundaries.

I recall one night of hell at my favourite South London restaurant. I took my boyfriend out for a meal which was completely ruined by the riotous kids of a table of beardy intellectuals (& that was just the women) nearby. The kids were literally running from one end of the restaurant to the other, yelping and screaming. At one point one of the men grabbed one of them - we thought for a telling-off - but instead turned him upside-down and playfully spun him around. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. We were tempted to intervene but couldn't face a row on what was supposed to be a nice quiet meal. It totally ruined the evening.

[AnotherPaul]

I love the Herne being so child friendly but it is certainly not the relaxing experience I'd previously come to associate with going to a pub. But having two U5's I've adapted my idea of what a good pub should be and appreciate that having a place to meet with friends and have a pint or some food on a weekend afternoon is great. As for griping about the changes made to the pub, having been in there a few times before the make-over there's simply no comparison. If shambles prefers moody staff watching TV all day serving crap lager and sub-standard food in an empty pub then there are still boozers like that - maybe try Lewisham?

[Mark]

A thread has been started (by Huguenot) here http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,14700 entitled Pubs that welcome kids...

Cleverly that means that pubs that are listed on there can be avoided as well as attended depending on your preference

[Keef]

I'm torn on this one... I'm sure that in a couple of years time, when fate willing I'll have little Keefs running around, I'll be grateful of a place I can go for a beer with them in tow, I also understand that people can't just leave kids at home. That said though, at this point, kids in pubs annoy the hell out of me! And believe it or not, I like kids... just not when I'm trying to drink and talk nonsense :))

[shambles]

There's some really good points on here (not sure about AnotherPaul's - bit rude but won't go there) but I would just stress that I am not against kid friendly places at all. Quite the opposite - I have a child too. However, the Herne was overwhelmingy packed out on sunday with kids and i'm surprised that anyone would find that relaxing? Even if my daughter was that age now I would avoid the Herne.

As for missing the old place - well I do! It was a bit crap and shabby but you could enjoy a drink in the garden with the kids playing happily in the playground. It certainly wasn't as popular as it is now - I wonder why!!

Anyway - I am delighted for all the parents of small children who enjoy going to the Herne. Just not for me.

That's it.

[*Bob*]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm torn on this one... I'm sure that in a couple

> of years time, when fate willing I'll have little

> Keefs running around, I'll be grateful of a place

> I can go for a beer with them in tow,

Trust me.. when the Spawn of Keef and Keefetta arrive, you'll thank your lucky stars for The Herne et al.