Is it true? (message from Admin) (Lounged)

[Tony.London Suburbs]

pk Wrote: so you've got statistical data about the prevalence of homophobia and racism in the 'black race'?

Just ask any Black friend or colleague that you know well, if, in their opinion, there is a higher ratio or proportion of Homophobic people within their Race, compared to other races, and see what their response is.

You need not ask them their own views or the views of their circle of friends but what their general perception is of other Black peoples views on this Subject (particularly of Afro-Caribbean descent) .

I'll be astonished if they do not agree that there is a much greater homophobic feeling in the Black Community.

[AllforNun]

oh crap i'm lost again... so you can munch badgers and be liberal but not liberal and munch badgers ...is that it ?

[pk]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

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> pk Wrote: so you've got statistical data about the

> prevalence of homophobia and racism in the 'black

> race'?

>

> Just ask any Black friend or colleague that you

> know well, if, in their opinion, there is a higher

> ratio or proportion of Homophobic people within

> their Race, compared to other races, and see what

> their response is.

>

> You need not ask them their own views or the views

> of their circle of friends but what their general

> perception is of other Black peoples views on this

> Subject (particularly of Afro-Caribbean descent)

> .

>

> I'll be astonished if they do not agree that there

> is a much greater homophobic feeling in the Black

> Community.

that's a no then

[Tony.London Suburbs]

AllforNun Wrote:

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> oh crap i'm lost again... so you can munch badgers

> and be liberal but not liberal and munch badgers

> ...is that it ?

Best to go and have a lie down in a darkened room Mon Ami.....no, no, not a darkened room...any room!

B)B)B) Now I KNOW you will NOT believe this but I SWEAR THIS IS 100% TRUE!...My Jamaican Ladyfriend is watching B.E.T. at this very moment and she has just said "Look at that Batty Bwoi!" "leave that kind of Dancing to the Girls!"...

I PROMISE THIS IS TRUE!!!

p.s Probably one of "total and utter co-incidences" that Moos mentioned!:))

[Tony.London Suburbs]

pk Wrote:

that's a no then

You are just becoming an example of what I replied when you asked why I mentioned this in the first place.;-)

You, blatantly, do not want to hear or believe this, for your own reasons.

pk you know that there is not going to be a Nationwide or Global survey of this but if you mix and work and are friends with as many Black people as I have done for the last 30 years then that view will be re-inforced with almost every conversation.

Thats just the way it is. If thats perceived as "Negative" then thats because most would see this view as antiquated and "negative"...

[lenk]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

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> Just ask any Black friend or colleague that you

> know well, if, in their opinion, there is a higher

> ratio or proportion of Homophobic people within

> their Race, compared to other races, and see what

> their response is.

This statement is basically 'I reckon', and therefore null and useless as a qualifier of anything, and in that sense is also racist, being as it is a completely unfounded 'hunch'.

Crikey.

[Mikecg]

The mind boggles!

[pk]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

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> There ARE racists and Homophobic people, no doubt, in all Groups but it is far, far more widespread in the Black Community. Any Black person wil confirm that, I'm certain.

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

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> its fair to assume that the next person one asks of the same Race will reply the

> same way

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

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> You, blatantly, do not want to hear or believe

> this, for your own reasons.

>

quotes taken from different posts, so 'out of context', but not unfair i think as a summary

i don't want to hear or believe it, the reason is because i don't believe it's true

[RosieH]

Tony, I offer my own experience as a counter to your argument.

My ex, who happens to be black, and of afro-caribbean descent, was quite happy to receive shoulder rubs in the sauna from men he believed to be gay.

Now you might argue that that merely suggests that I'm in terrible denial (and I wouldn't blame you). Whereas I feel that if I were to follow your argument, I would take this to mean that all black people are egotistical indolent sybarites.

If you're to make a considered argument, citing one example of a forum and one comment from your jamaican ladyfriend doesn't constitute strong evidence. Going back to the point Sean made several hundred posts ago, there may be something cultural at work if all your evidence is anecdotal from people who move in your circle.

[Huguenot]

Tony old chap, if you make assumptions about someone because of their race, that's racist.

If you want to know if a guys is homophobic or not, you have to ask him. You can't hang him for the crime because of the colour of his skin.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Well if there is anyone in EDFLand who does not realise after reading the following that a higher proportion of Black people are Homophobic nothing will make them see it, as they clearly do not want to.

There is a thread entitled "Afrikans will not bow down on Homosexuality!" in the "News and Politics" Section of Blacknet.co.uk, which s the UK's premier Site for Black people from all walks of life.

The thread lasts for 4 pages and makes fascinating reading for those who do not realise the general hatred of Homosexuality in the Black Community. I do not use the term "hatred" lightly.

This is from The BNV Managing Editor himself! (He is replying to a comment rom "Spinster" who is one of the few people trying to be moderate on this Subject.......

14-07-08, 08:37 AM

Quote:Originally Posted by Spinster

... some of the things being said in this thread are very extreme and downright nasty. Just because someone is not practicing what you may not think is "right" or "holy" or "righteous" or "natural" does not give you the right to speak so nasty about them, nor does it give anyone the right to kill them.

Here is the reply from the BNV Managing Editor himself (no less!)..

"If you had actually read the posts as you claimed to have done (as opposed to 'getting a general flavour' from reading snippets that do not concur with YOUR views) you would see that people here are NOT advocating KILLING people for their preference).

The central theme among the posters here is that CULTURALLY, homosexuality is alien to our culture (which is not to suggest that there are NO Africans who practice it), just that it is something which in general Africans abhor and think to be UNNATURAL in the scheme of life.......IN OUR CULTURE MAN WAS NOT MADE TO GO WITH MAN OR WOMAN WITH WOMAN.....If such were natural in the scheme of things, the world would be very different from what it is.

Furthermore, people here are saying that it is the RIGHT of each country/government (e.g. African countries) to choose the stance their take on homosexuality and NOT be 'directed' by Europeans/Western views/preferences on the matter.

Whilst out and out killing of people who happen to be homosexuality cannot be justified in a humane world, the fact that there are those who are totally disgusted and opposed to such practice is something other should learn to accept. WE FEEL THE WAY WE DO, THAT IS IT!

Respect"......

pk: Please take the time to read the whole thread (or get a flavour thereof).

All the top brass on that Site contribute as do many ordinary Villagers and on the whole thread from the thousands of Members of BNV there is not ONE dissenting voice!

(Well there WAS one "New Improved Morris (NIM) " but he was hounded out and his posts removed for trying to impose his values on their Site, turns out NIM was White/British.

No disrespect but unless you are living in some kind of parellel universe I do not know how you have not realised this most obvious of "truisms"....

[Tony.London Suburbs]

lenk Wrote:

.. being as it is a completely unfounded 'hunch'. Crikey.

You will say more than "Crikey" if you take the time and trouble to read "Blacknet.co.uk"- "News and Politics Village" the thread entitled "Afrikans will not bow down on Homosexuality"....

This is the Premier UK Site for Black people in Britain and after reading this you will never think my views are a "hunch" again...

[Huguenot]

All you're doing TLS is using one group's prejudice to justify another. This isn't reasonable.

'Truisms' are prejudices.

You, and they, are both judging people on their racial background. You and they are both being racist.

I'm not challenging any figures about the prevalence of any trait in any community, what I'm saying is that it is racist to use this data to form generalisations which make assumptions about any individual.

Your quotes and figures are utterly immaterial - you're just using them to justify racism.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Huguenot, supposing that you intend to interview every single member of 2 communities in the UK (for example) and 100% of people from one racial group (hypothetically) voted "Yes" over the question (whatever it may be) and 100% of people from another Group voted "No" then are you saying that one can not make assumptions about which way the remaining 50 people from each community will vote, who you have yet to ask?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Also Huguenot is it Racist to note blatantly obvious cultural differences between races?

I realise we are in different time zones so I was staying up to debate this for a while but as you are not currently around I'm off to bed so laters..

[Huguenot]

TLS you still can make no assumptions about individuals in any particular racial group apart from the fact that a different group of people you asked answered in a particular way to a particular question at a particular time in a particular environment.

That's claiming that 'because your mates are homophobic and share your skin colour, you must be homophobic'.

Even the respondents may change their mind over time.

The point is about drawing inferences about an individual based on your experiences of people of a similar racial background.

If the first Inuit you see mugs you for your mobile, you can't imprison the next on the grounds that you've got a 100% criminal rate in the sum of your experiences so far.

On race and culture you're already in hot water: sharing racial characteristics doesn't mean you share culture. It is ridiculous to claim that Ainsley Harriot, Barack Obama and Thomas Lubanga share culture regarding homophobia, family values or religion.

It's not racist to note cultural differences, but it is racist to extrapolate from the individual to the general.

In your example above you use one extremist website that supports your prejudices to cast aspersions on the entire afro-carribean community. You argue that because you've found it here, it applies to everyone of similar racial descent. That's racism.

[taper]

Tony has been quiet for a while on the subject of race, but he is unhealthily obsessed with it. When he first came on the site, having implored us all to all to move to Welling with its "British feel", he got into hot water with posters linking crime and race. Then he and I had a spat about race and athletic prowess (and dancing I think). And now he's suggesting there's a link between race and attitudes towards homosexuality, praying (as he often does) "Blacknet" in aid of his case.

This is a common theme for Tony. And no matter how many times you try to explain to him that this has nothing to do with with race and that, while his views might be innocently held, they are offensive, he will not be told.

[huncamunca]

Breaking news: Trolls work is done , despite troll being banned

[Keef]

citizenED Wrote:

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> BTW I'm reading this thread with interest and

> don't agree that it ought to be wound up yet.

Halal-Face obviously said something worthy of

censure in the OP but all the same the question to

be answered is whether or not this forum can be

construed as racist in any way.

Now see what you've started! ;-)

I don't read every post on here, and have missed some things that have been deleted, so admittedly could have missed something openly racist. However, in the threads I have read's nothing has ever made me think "that is a racist comment". Now this may mean that by not being offended by something, I am actually sympathetic towards racism, or that I've just missed it. I have definitely seen people jump on posts as racist because they describe someone as black, and this I just don't agree with.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Nail on head.

Never mind that the homophobic attitudes ascribed to that part of the world are largely the result of the fundamentalist white settlers, but if you were to move the circle Tony has drawn around those caribbean islands up a notch and have it circle the largely white mid-westerns states of the USA, a similar fundamentalism gives rise to the same homophobia.

Nothing to do with race Tony

[*Bob*]

If you really wanted to canvas opinion and gather first-hand personal experience, you could get yourselves down to some gay clubs and ask black gay men how they feel about it.

Tone might have spoiled his A-level paper by putting his foot in the cultural/racial pot-hole, but if you're dreaming of a rainbow world of acceptance and understanding in the black community - then you really are dreaming.

[Brendan]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> Never mind that the homophobic attitudes ascribed

> to that part of the world are largely the result

> of the fundamentalist white settlers,

Bullshit.

Sorry Sean but the rest of your post was all fair enough but suggesting that homophobia is some kind of white invention forced upon people of other races is complete and utter bullshit.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I didn't say it was a white invention. But what I meant was, and it's fair to say when I get time I'll need to back this up, my understanding is that the evangelical churches which took root in those communities a couple of centuries back are largely responsible for the current rooted culture of discrimination. I'm not saying there wasn't inherent homophobia anywhere before then, nor that a white church invented it - I'm saying it has taken root as a justifiable social norm in some communities (black and white) because of faith

[Brendan]

Religion does conveniently give people?s prejudices vindication and serves to further entrench ideologies, yes.

But discrimination of all sorts including homophobia are alive and well in communities of all sorts all over the world sans the benefit of Christianity, Islam or whatever other religion to champion their cause.

[candj]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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>

> Never mind that the homophobic attitudes ascribed

> to that part of the world are largely the result

> of the fundamentalist white settlers, but if you

> were to move the circle Tony has drawn around

> those caribbean islands up a notch and have it

> circle the largely white mid-westerns states of

> the USA, a similar fundamentalism gives rise to

> the same homophobia.

>

Yes, but homophobia, sadly, exists everywhere, not just the vast and scary white mid-west of the US. For example in some countries like Saudi Arabia it is actually illegal and that goes way beyond mere homophobia and I don't think any white settlers were there influencing public policy, although perhaps I could be wrong.

Best,

-C