Over-zealous Holly Grove PCNs (Peckham Rye Station drop-offs)

[Rowanofski]

I have lived in East Dulwich for over 10 years now and during that time, have made fairly regular drop-offs and pick-ups at Peckham Rye station (Holly Grove round the back of McDonalds) for visiting friends / relatives without issue.

In the past 2 months, I have had 2 PCNs issued for the most over-officious reasons that have left me fuming at Southwark Council. I have appealed unsuccessfully and now feel bullied into having to pay the ?65 (also seems excessive) rather than face the prospect of an independent adjudicator possibly ruling against me and that fee doubling. There seems to be no recourse on this and Southwark are way over-the-top aggression in their pursuing these.

Has anyone else had a recent PCN for unreasonable grounds? My representations were roundly ignored and they essentially repeated the statement of my original offence, whilst ignoring all my counter points.

My first charge was a drop-off, where I was stationary for 2 minutes (as specified on the PCN) in the large bay set back from the road by the red garages just past the pedestrian entrance to the station from Holly Grove. They accused me of being parked more than 50cm from the kerb and therefore obstructing traffic (I wasn't even close to obstructing anyone).

The second charge, I pulled into the loading bay in order to pick up my in-laws and they accused me of being the wrong class of vehicle to stop here. Again, the duration was 2 minutes.

I?m sure I?ll get some jolly troll telling me I ?shouldn?t have parked there?, but I have walked around the entire vicinity of Peckham Rye station and there seems to be nowhere permitted to drop off or pick up passengers within a few hundred yards. Hardly ideal if you are collecting elderly visitors from out of town.

Anyway, just keen to know why they?ve suddenly become so aggressive on this (apart from the obvious money-grabbing incentive) and if anyone else has been stung by it.

[MissMadMoo]

aggressive?

[Rowanofski]

Aggressive approach... as in, issuing tickets for a 2min drop-off where you are causing no obstruction, inconvenience or delay to anyone whatsoever.

[MissMadMoo]

Sorry, it does sound like another one of those boring whinge posts.... you know the rules.

Tough luck eh.

[MarkE]

Rowanofski Wrote:

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> Aggressive approach... as in, issuing tickets for

> a 2min drop-off where you are causing no

> obstruction, inconvenience or delay to anyone

> whatsoever.

Out of curiousity, what do you feel should be an acceptable time limit for parking in a loading back, even if there is no obstruction, inconvenience or delay?

Alternatively, what would be a more appropriate penalty for a misdemeanour as short as two minutes?

I'm probably as culpable as the next person for taking advantage of a parking spot for a few minutes, but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Is two minutes okay but five minutes too long? Would ?20 be more appropriate?

The 50cm rule seems a bit dubious unless someone's taken out some measuring tape or unless you're overhanging the bay perimiter. But beyond that, there have to be some quite hard and fast rules, no?

[Jeremy]

The "serves-you-right" responses were/are inevitable. I have sympathy... pretty much every driver sometimes stops off for a minute to drop off someone or pick someone up. But at the same time, surely we all know by now how opportunistic these traffic wardens are. It's their job to issue as many tickets as possible, so there is no incentive for them to use any sort of judgement.

[Rowanofski]

MarkE - Ok, so there needs to be a cut-off and clearly defined rules, I do get that, but rules need to be framed by common sense. My opinion on it is largely irrelevant, but maybe 10min is reasonable? It's all about what is "reasonable" in my eyes. Again, the fine just seems high. My wife got a parking fine somewhere else and it was ?45. Is ?65 reasonable? I don't expect them to issue different values for different periods of offence.

Jeremy - It isn't traffic wardens who issue these, it is a camera that picks it up and sends it out via post.

[Charles Notice]

It's a money generating exercise only. Do not forget the overhead camera where they can see you dropping people off.

The road goes nowhere and is the only place to drop people off.

They should take a look a Rye Lane or Blenheim Grove. Thought not

[Lowlander]

I've successfully appealed all five parking tickets I've had during my life and don't think you don't stand a chance here (although good luck to you if you go ahead!)

On what grounds do you think the PCNs are unreasonable? The signs are quite clear and there is no leeway (as you've paid to find out).

[Ladygooner]

Maybe use East Dulwich station in future to drop off and pick up passengers - plenty of side roads to park in

[Andrew1011]

"I have appealed unsuccessfully and now feel bullied into having to pay the ?65 (also seems excessive) rather than face the prospect of an independent adjudicator possibly ruling against me and that fee doubling."

The fee doesn't double if you appeal to the independent adjudicator if you lose. At the end of the appeal process you're given a specified period during which you can still pay at the initial penalty charge rate. Not knowing this puts many people off appealing against PCNs.

[Rowanofski]

Charles Notice has nailed it...

"The road goes nowhere and is the only place to drop people off."

I've only ever had 2 tickets prior to this and I also appealed both successfully. I appealed these on the grounds that I did not leave the vehicle, the motor was running and the handbrake not applied so I was therefore not technically parked. I also flagged the whole 2min time window on each occasion and foolishly hoped for a bit of reasonable common sense. I finally pointed out other factors such as the elderly relative and not obstructing anyone.

Going back to MarkE's where is the cut-off point, I honestly feel that 2 minutes is just RIDICULOUS! This is their own time-stamp, not me playing it down and claiming 15min as a "couple".

[Rowanofski]

Andrew1011 - I wish you were right, but Southwark have clearly stated in their letter to me:

"If you lose your appeal, you will have to pay the full charge rather than the discount charge (unless the Adjudicator decides otherwise)."

I should clarify this is for after I have appealed to Southwark. The original so-called "discount" charge stands if Southwark reject your appeal, but Southwark have ignored my main points of objection and simply restated the original charge, so I don't feel my Representation was truly considered. If it goes to an Independent Adjudicator after the Southwark Representation, it increases to ?130 if you lose.

[first mate]

Well, just wait until all the new restricted parking is introduced on Lordship Lane and beyond. There'll be plenty more of this to come and what with the new school, new M&S and the new cinema, there'll be lots more visting cars too. Kerching.

[Jeremy]

Rowanofski Wrote:

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> Jeremy - It isn't traffic wardens who issue these,

> it is a camera that picks it up and sends it out

> via post.

How very modern!

Nevertheless, the point remains. The objective is to issue as many tickets as possible, unfortunately the process leaves no room for "common sense" at all. It should. But it doesn't.

[Charles Notice]

Perhaps they could put up a large sign that says drop off point 10 minutes only allowed and have the camera monitor

If you are still around the car how can you cause an obstruction.

Southwark just recently have had great experience in sign erection so it should not present any technical problems

As Jeremy has pointed out they lack consideration and common sense.

Perhaps after their recently held one to one employment assessments with managers they have been told to up their game

[hopskip]

If I were you I would send in a ?65 cheque (assuming you may still have such an item) with a cover letter saying that this in no way admits your liability or agreement that you conducted an offence but that you are forced into this approach because your appeal has been unjustly reviewed and you want it reviewed again.

For the 50cm one - did they provide photographic evidence? If not, there is no evidence so it is he said/she said and hard to see how they can uphold it.

Appeal - but make sure they can not say you did not pay.

Rowanofski Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Andrew1011 - I wish you were right, but Southwark

> have clearly stated in their letter to me:

>

> "If you lose your appeal, you will have to pay the

> full charge rather than the discount charge

> (unless the Adjudicator decides otherwise)."

>

>

[Andrew1011]

"Andrew1011 - I wish you were right, but Southwark have clearly stated in their letter to me"

Yes you're right, it's so long since I had and appealed a ticket I forgot how much the non-discounted penalty charge is now.

It does come down to how much you rate your chances of winning the appeal. Don't forget around 65 per cent of appeals are upheld and many aren't even contested by councils, sometimes just because they have a backlog they want to clear.

[goosey-goosey]

I won both of my appeals. One was on the grounds of bad signage. The other came down to the independent adjudicator believing there was no malice aforethought on my part. A friend also used the same argument recently, and won. These were judgments against Southwark, Westminster, and Tower Hamlets respectively. Rowanofski, your position doesn't sound strong to me, though in borderline cases I would say the adjudicator will lend a kind ear to an honest individual with a clear argument who feels strongly enough about things to wade through the appeal process and turn up to the hearing at a possibly unfriendly hour.

[edcam]

If the parking's restricted and the signage is clear then 2 minutes is too long. Sorry but the parking for residents round there is hardly generous and they pay to park there, why should they pay for you as well?

[Sue]

I don't understand this at all (the OP I mean, not the last post).

There are rules, and clear punishments for breaking the rules.

If you choose to break the rules, you run the risk of being punished if you're caught

You might be unlucky to be caught, maybe, but hey ho shit happens.

I don't understand why you might think you have grounds for appeal just because you only broke the rule "slightly"? It's just wasting everybody's time, isn't it? Sorry to sound harsh.

I have been fined for speeding. I thought I was unlucky, not that I shouldn't have been fined.

if you think there should be better provision for picking up people at the station, then make a case to the relevant councillor or whatever, but please don't whinge because you've been fined for breaking a clearly publicised rule.

[Loz]

I think the loading bay one is cut and dried (i.e. tough cookies), but as someone said above, what evidence do they have for the 50cm one. That one may be worth pursuing with the adjudicator, as they have to prove their case (does the photo show this??). Depending on the wording of the infraction, you might also be able to ask for proof you obstructed traffic.

[intexasatthe moment]

I suppose the trouble is that the PCN's are issued automatically as a result of cameras .Makes it all very black and white and no room for common sense or discretion until it gets to the appeal stage ,by which time I suppose it's it's a little late .

I agree with OP there should a specific ruling to allow a 10 minute window for drop offs and pick ups .

Is the bay opposite the Liberal Club in Elm Grove controlled by cameras or Traffic Wardens .If the latter then that might be a better bet ?

[StraferJack]

re: drop offs being permitted - would that really be a good idea

Wouldnb't a lot more people make use of such a facility and wouldn't that generate traffic congestion on Rye Lane itself? I always get the impression that road is only 3 or 4 more cars away from gridlock

[nunhead_man]

if this was a camera based issue it may be worth seeking out the camera evidence holding lot just off the Walworth Road?

On one of the rare occasions I took a truck out I got stuck in a box junction on the Walworth Road when a bus pulled out to avoid an errant pedestrian - at least that is what I saw when I saw the video footage at the council offices.

The bod showing me said "oh" and cancelled the ticket as before being cut up by the bus I had a clear exit route from the box