Aircraft noise -

[fazer71]

Zebedee Tring Wrote:

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> On one level I find Fazer's stance amusing and

> indeed contradictory since, on the basis of his

> posting history, he appears to be a free market

> enthusiast who believes that the market is always

> right and that state intervention of any kind

> constitutes dogmatic socialism. One would

> therefore expect him to say that if the market

> demands unlimited flights and airport runways,

> then this should be allowed.

HAHA Socialists don't understand free markets they confuse them with other forms of freedom.

Besides all markets are regulated via safety laws taxes etc

But that isn't the point here.

The point here is quality of human life and nature etc trumps all market business freedoms.

IE pumping poison into rivers, night clubs playing loud out music, the list is long and they all matter more that profit in a civilised society.

Aircraft noise is no different the market doesn't decide on the NOISE levels!

Aircraft noise ... At some level it is not civilised not natural regardless of how much money it makes.

Funny you to use such a warped skewed narrow view.

> However, since I am a compassionate man, I would

> like to offer him an argument that will enable him

> to climb out of the hole that he has dug for

> himself. Instead of comparing climate change

> deniers to Holocaust deniers, a better analogy

> would be the "birthers" in the USA who, in spite

> of all the evidence produced, still argue that

> Obama wasn't born in the USA and therefore

> shouldn't be President.

So kind of you to look out for me :) good bit of compassion even though I'm not in a hole.

Aren't you now ? :)

On "birthers" what an interesting term.

I'd never heard of it! It's a little special an American special term I'd be surprised if more than an handful of posters were familiar with the term.

Most would know what holocaust deniers are.

Humanity should never forget.

PC brigade on here try to avoid historical & present realities and truths.

PC madness. Bunch of fantasists living in lala land with their fingers in their ears .. sleep walking into 24/7 Aircraft noise ..

[Zebedee Tring]

I hear what you say, fazer. Now may I suggest that you go and lie down for a bit, since you seem somewhat overwrought.

Even if people haven't heard the term "birthers", they will certainly have read about fanatics like Trump saying that Obama shouldn't be President and their spurious reason for saying this.

[DuncanW]

I've heard of the term birthers

It was on the news quite a bit

[DulvilleRes]

Stop being rude to Fazer! He has made a completely legitimate point about aircraft noise. Lots of people have backed him up in finding it disrupts their life. If people are rude enough to call him nuts for reacting like he does to the noise, he is entitled to defend himself. The issue is Aircraft noise - not Fazer.

[ourbubbleonline]

Ohhhh - Sorry yes threads (yet all threads start as a POST) . . . . Jeez some people just won't let go will they . . .

[Zebedee Tring]

DulvilleRes, I defy you to point out exactly where I (as opposed to anyone else) have said that I was in favour of aircraft noise. I am in fact very much opposed to aircraft noise and indeed have only flown twice during the last fifteen years. I am in no doubt that climate change very much exists. Satisfied?

[fazer71]

Who would rather raise Obama over the Holocaust?

Keeping the memory of the holocaust alive as a warning for future generations, ihmo is a must for humanity.

I have no issue with the comparison in fact quite the opposite!

In a twist of fate the deniers have helped raise the issue and keep the subject alive.

Have aircraft noise deniers done the same for aircraft noise, they are equally insane?

Also getting pretty fu?ked off with the politically "correct" warped posters.

Stupid comments like "If you fly don't moan about the noise."

Is like saying "If you drive don't moan about road deaths" utterly bonkers!

If such comments are not moronic what on earth constitutes a moronic post?

[Penguin68]

To suggest that people who are not themselves as concerned as you are about local noise from aircraft - NOBODY, is denying that aircraft fly overhead nor that they make noise when they do so - are equivalent in any way to people who deny that an intentional mass slaughter of 6 million people ever took place is an obscenity. There are things that I get worked up about as well, but I would feel deeply ashamed if I ever allowed myself to equate people who disagreed with me as 'equivalent to holocaust deniers'.

Your fixation with aircraft noise appears to be coming pathological - as are the levels of insult you are happy to offer those who have the temerity either to disagree with you, or to be concerned about your tone of voice to those who disagree with you.

It is a simple truth that, for many of us, the noise locally of aircraft does not pose us a problem - we are not disturbed by it, we are not kept awake or awakened by it, in the normal course of events we hardly notice it. When we do, it does not upset or anger us. That doesn't mean that you aren't impacted by it, nor that your 'pain', for you, isn't unbearable. But your feelings are not universal, they are not shared by everyone else in Dulwich, and to say we don't share your fears and discomfort is not to deny or denigrate it, as it impacts you.

I get hay fever, grass pollens make me sneeze uncontrollably without anti-histamine drugs to suppress it. Other people don't get hay fever. I wouldn't call those who don't share my suffering 'deniers' - (I might call them lucky). Not sharing your pain is not to deny it (for you). Your aggression towards those who don't share your pain (even when they are not denying that you have a problem) should concern you. It certainly does me.

[monkeylite]

Typical capitalist, let others suffer from the problem as long as they don't.

Tbh, I find Fazer's lack of understanding of supply and demand concept of market economy to be incredibly funny.

[fazer71]

Penguin68

Do keep up with previous posts see below.

Key bits .. perceived "aircraft noise" (=what aircraft noise if it's perceived?).. and He/she (ME) clearly has some major issues. (Rather insulting).

I can't be bothered to trawl though and find all the others but I assure you they are there !

Who have I insulted ? Those who make stupid posts .. as explained ...

""""Stupid comments like "If you fly don't moan about the noise."

Is like saying "If you drive don't moan about road deaths" utterly bonkers! """"

Those who believe it is an insult to compare the insane brains of holocaust deniers to insane brains of aircraft noise deniers.... ?

These posters are blatant deniers when they post "WHAT NOISE?" what else can they be other than DEAF !

Aggressive me.....? What about others ?

Please don't waste you efforts making further posts "for me" I have no need for such concerned narcissistic garbage.

You and they are not sharing my paint, denying it exists and suggesting I am overreacting,, results in adding to my pain!

FWIW There are no drugs to supress aircraft noise ... other than sleeping pills.

I can see you'll never understand anything other than your own simple view ...

I feel your pain .. especially as you appear to be unaware of your condition .. . :(

edcam Wrote:

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> Fazer's comparison of people who don't have a

> problem with this perceived "aircraft noise" and

> holocaust deniers has to be one of the most

> bizarre and offensive that I've read on this

> forum. He/she clearly has some major issues.

[fazer71]

monkeylite Wrote:

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> Typical capitalist, let others suffer from the

> problem as long as they don't.

>

> Tbh, I find Fazer's lack of understanding of

> supply and demand concept of market economy to be

> incredibly funny.

Don't be ridiculous I don't wish my problems on anyone how dare you twist what I have said!

Supply and demand does not trump safe civilised living conditions.

FFS!

[Otta]

DulvilleRes Wrote:

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> Stop being rude to Fazer! He has made a completely

> legitimate point about aircraft noise. Lots of

> people have backed him up in finding it disrupts

> their life. If people are rude enough to call him

> nuts for reacting like he does to the noise, he is

> entitled to defend himself. The issue is Aircraft

> noise - not Fazer.

When someone starts throwing insults around (before anyone has said anything rude to him) they tend to lose sympathy pretty quickly.

Fazer is an angry little man, and the fact he's compared holocaust to excessive aircraft noise shows him up as a very odd person.

[fazer71]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> DulvilleRes Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Stop being rude to Fazer! He has made a

> completely

> > legitimate point about aircraft noise. Lots of

> > people have backed him up in finding it

> disrupts

> > their life. If people are rude enough to call

> him

> > nuts for reacting like he does to the noise, he

> is

> > entitled to defend himself. The issue is

> Aircraft

> > noise - not Fazer.

>

>

> When someone starts throwing insults around

> (before anyone has said anything rude to him) they

> tend to lose sympathy pretty quickly.

>

> Fazer is an angry little man, and the fact he's

> compared holocaust to excessive aircraft noise

> shows him up as a very odd person.

WHAT do you not understand ???

I have compared holocaust DENIERS to Aircraft noise deniers !!

NOT

holocaust to excessive aircraft noise !!!

Are you a for REAL ??

[Help-Ma-Boab]

Fazer71 - you are going to burst a blood vessel. Have a croissant and a wee sit down.

[fazer71]

I'm fine thanks I don't have high blood pressure I'm not Fazed. ;)

I do have aircraft noise tinnitus and an associated lack of sleep which is a right royal PITA.

I am quite shocked at some of the posts directed towards me.

Bizarre interpretations of straightforward comparisons, warped "politically correct" views, an almost complete failure to understand basic English and a constant twisting of my words.

Quite freakish!

Sad to see such base levels of comprehension, ignorance really is a curse.

[mikeb]

can we calm this thread down a bit please?

I too am bothered by airplane noise and particularly in the summer when I can't sleep beyond 5am if my windows are open (and so I have to sleep with them closed even at 30 degrees). I am also surprised that other people can ignore it though I don't doubt that they are able to, and I'm somewhat envious to be honest. I don't think the noise has got particularly worse in the past 5 years but I'm also very dubious of Heathrow's claims that overall noise levels will be lower in 2025 even with a third runway open.

More to the point, I continue to think we've missed an opportunity to relocate Heathrow entirely. At some point, we will realise the danger and folly of flying 80 million people every year right over the heads of c. 8m people, and of forcing Heathrow to operate at 99% capacity. We should have taken the opportunity of record low interest rates to build a properly sized airport in a proper location NW of London that maximises national access, minimises noise pollution for those overflown and improves international connectivity. Another example of UK short-termism.

[edcam]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> .

>

> Fazer is an angry little man, and the fact he's

> compared holocaust to excessive aircraft noise

> shows him up as a very odd person.

Indeed. Any substance to his arguments is rather undermined by his insulting and ignorant posts.

[fazer71]

edcam Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Otta Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > .

> >

> > Fazer is an angry little man, and the fact he's

> > compared holocaust to excessive aircraft noise

> > shows him up as a very odd person.

>

> Indeed. Any substance to his arguments is rather

> undermined by his insulting and ignorant posts.

Let's be very clear.

I have not and would never compare the holocaust to aircraft noise.

IMO I'm due an apology.

Please STOP your absurd insulting OT posts!

[TheArtfulDogger]

So sorry, can't resist following on from mikeb who said

"flying 80 million people every year right over the heads of c. 8m people"

"The needs of the many far out way the needs of the few" Spock

[Zebedee Tring]

Fazer, judging from your previous posting history, you sound as if you are a fan of Margaret Thatcher, the woman who said "There is no such thing as society". In other words, she was really saying "As long as I get what I want, then sod you even if you're inconvenienced by my needs". So an unfettered flights policy is the logical conclusion of Thatcherite philosophy.

I hasten to add that Thatcherism is virtually the opposite of what I believe, since in my opinion there should be severe constraints on flights, especially when so many businesspeople can communicate with each other by Skype and the like without needing to fly. But fazer, surely you can see the inconsistencies in your ideological position.

[fazer71]

TheArtfulDogger

The numbers should be taken in context.

Is it 80 million people or is it 80million journeys?

IE how many of those who have travelled are multiple flyers flying every week or every month.

It may be 8 million individuals who make up 80 million flights if they 10 times a year?

Many wealthy people and business people fly once or twice a week 52 to 104 journeys a year!

Regardless that isn't what matters.

What matters is quality of life for those who live under and with the cursed noise.

The finances do not come ahead of safety and quality of human life..

If it was affecting a rare frog or species of birds or donkeys etc these same people would be up in arms waving placards to save the poor animals .. but people don't matter !!! Insane.

mikeb

Makes a great point on the future successive governments have been incompetence and short-termism.

Heathrow is long past its sell by date in reality it has no future and will eventually need replacing the plan should be to replace it as sooner the longer we wait the more it will cost and the more damage it will cause to peoples lives.

[fazer71]

Zebedee Tring Wrote:

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> Fazer, judging from your previous posting history,

> you sound as if you are a fan of Margaret

> Thatcher, the woman who said "There is no such

> thing as society". In other words, she was really

> saying "As long as I get what I want, then sod

> you even if you're inconvenienced by my needs". So

> an unfettered flights policy is the logical

> conclusion of Thatcherite philosophy.

Absurd that's like adding 2 and 2 and coming up with 1 !

You're confusing my beliefs which I explained .. maybe look through the thread . before engaging finger .

The statement "There is no such thing as society" once put in context isn't Maggie being anti society.

As with my comment on holocaust deniers, context is everything.

> I hasten to add that Thatcherism is virtually the

> opposite of what I believe, since in my opinion

> there should be severe constraints on flights,

> especially when so many businesspeople can

> communicate with each other by Skype and the like

> without needing to fly. But fazer, surely you can

> see the inconsistencies in your ideological

> position.

There are no inconsistencies with my ideological position.

My belief in free trade doesn't trump my belief in quality of human life or destruction of the planet.

Heathrow was build before jet aircraft it was build in the wrong place its owners and economics forced government to allow it to expand, it is and was a mistake and will if we allow it remain a mistake a mistake which no government wants to tackle. They all bury their heads in the sand and wish it would go away and they then allow the pro Heathrow lobby to get their way regardless of its insanity.

Our beliefs are probably not too far apart but our understanding & logic appear to be at different ends of the spectrum otherwise you wouldn't be using some spurious Thatcherite philosophy painting me as a Thatcherite which fyi I am not although I may agree with some things she did as I also agree with some things Attlee did.

You really should be sticking to the subject.

[fazer71]

OT

for the benefit of Zebedee Tring & anyone else who wishes to understand the context of Thatcher's words.

Not for those who don't want their illusions shattered.

"""""""""

I think we have gone through a period when too many children and people have been given to understand ?I have a problem, it is the Government?s job to cope with it!? or ?I have a problem, I will go and get a grant to cope with it!? ?I am homeless, the Government must house me!? and so they are casting their problems on society and who is society? There is no such thing! There are individual men and women and there are families and no government can do anything except through people and people look to themselves first? There is no such thing as society. There is living tapestry of men and women and people and the beauty of that tapestry and the quality of our lives will depend upon how much each of us is prepared to take responsibility for ourselves and each of us prepared to turn round and help by our own efforts those who are unfortunate.?

""""""""""""""""""""""

Edit to add

I could use this Maggie quote

?I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.?

=

?I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single on topic argument left.?

""""""""""

[monkeylite]

Fazer is like this heavy smoker I know who complains about the presence of secondhand smoke.

[*Bob*]

fazer71 Wrote:

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> I could use this Maggie quote

> ?I always cheer up immensely if an attack is

> particularly wounding because I think, well, if

> they attack one personally, it means they have not

> a single political argument left.?

I think you've conveniently forgotten you called some people a c*** in various posts?