Greece...

[Loz]

But aren't the IMF proposing everyone but the IMF offer debt relief?

[ed_pete]

Ping !

[????]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Blah Blah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I believe she is genuinely trying to save Greece

> from the abyss.

>

> If she is, she's gone about it a strange way. By

> agreeing on a "haircut" months ago, Germany could

> have given Greece a fighting chance of recovery

> while still repaying a large chunk of their debt.

> But by trying to force Greece into austerity

> measures, she has caused widespread resentment,

> destabilisation of the union, radicalisation of

> Greek parliament... AND Germany still aren't going

> to get paid in full. Lose lose.

...yeah but she'll win the election.

So much for european solidarity, the whole sorry afair has just showed that the sceptics were right and not swiveeled eyed loons (well apart from Gordon Brown obvioulsy :)). Interestingly the rabid left has now joined the rabid right on wanting us out - excitable, angry, screaming, 11 year old trotskyite Owen Jones leading the charge, bless him.

[Blah Blah]

I think you have a point Jeremy and what's clear is that this whole process with Greece has been messy. But the fact remains that if a country's banks fail, the country completely fails (the consequences of which are mass unemployment, homelessness and hunger) . It's why every nation in the world bailed out it's banks after the 2008 crash. We may resent what it cost us the tax payer, but there really was no alternative.

It's a bit rich for any EU nation to be quibbling over the cost of saving Greece. Who enabled Europe's post war reconstruction? And how about the UK in 1976? When we ourselves had to go to the IMF. There are examples of comparatively much getter loans being made with much more realistic replayment terms and there's no reason why the same can't be achieved with Greece.

[miga]

???? Wrote:

> Interestingly the

> rabid left has now joined the rabid right on

> wanting us out - excitable, angry, screaming, 11

> year old trotskyite Owen Jones leading the charge,

> bless him.

He wrote much the same thing in 2011 (linked from the article you refer to, not too far in).

[miga]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It's a bit rich for any EU nation to be quibbling

> over the cost of saving Greece. Who enabled

> Europe's post war reconstruction? And how about

> the UK in 1976? When we ourselves had to go to the

> IMF. There are examples of comparatively much

> getter loans being made with much more realistic

> replayment terms and there's no reason why the

> same can't be achieved with Greece.

My understanding is that this (restructuring) is precisely what the Greeks have been asking for since the New Year. It's not a new idea, but now that the negotiating is done, the IMF (and others) have publicly said they think this is a good idea.

[uncleglen]

From Wiki:

In 1942, the Greek Central Bank was forced by the occupying Nazi regime to loan 476 million Reichsmarks at 0% interest to Nazi Germany. In 1960, Greece accepted 115 million Marks as compensation for Nazi crimes. Nevertheless, past Greek governments have insisted that this was only a down-payment, not complete reparations.[1] In 1990, immediately prior to German reunification, West Germany and East Germany signed the Two Plus Four Agreement with the former Allied countries of the United States, Great Britain, France, and the Soviet Union. Since that time, Germany has insisted that all matters concerning World War II, including further reparations to Greece, are closed because Germany officially surrendered to the Allies and to no other parties, including Greece. On Sunday, February 8, 2015, the Greek Prime Minister, Alexis Tsipras appeared in front of the Greek parliament and officially demanded that Germany pay further reparations to Greece.[2] On April 6, 2015, Greece demanded Germany pay it the equivalent of $303 billion in reparations for the war. Germany replied that the reparations issue was resolved in 1990.[3]

[Blah Blah]

That's very interesting uncleglen. And perhaps sheds some light on why Greece are a bit miffed. No suprise either that the superpowers then (as they do now) took it on themselves to speak for everyone. Osbourne btw has refused to pay a ?1bn contribution to the new bailout deal on the table.

[miga]

I don't think asking Germany for additional reparations was the wisest thing the Greeks did in the recent months. I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but there's a reason the Allies didn't attempt to extract the full amount owing from Germany after WWII, stemming from the terrible consequences of post-WWI reparations (which someone alluded to earlier in the thread). It's not just the Greeks that didn't get the full cost of the damage - the reparation payments throughout Europe were substantial, but not full, for pragmatic reasons.

Having said that, if what Varoufakis said in interview to New Statesman is truthful - I can also understand why they'd want to point out (rather unsubtly) that debt forgiveness has been crucial to Germany's own post-WWII development path.

[Blah Blah]

' debt forgiveness has been crucial to Germany's own post-WWII development path.'

Yes quite. And the lack of debt forgiveness has kept other countries crippled, Africa, Latin America both have examples of what happens when there is no flexibiity.

[uncleglen]

A bit miffed...putting it mildly I would think Blah Blah

[Blah Blah]

:D