Greece...

[Jeremy]

You think the Greek people will be better off in the long term if the government defaults on their debt?

[DulwichFox]

The Greek military junta of 1967?74, commonly known as the Regime of the Colonels

put off foreign tourists to visiting the country. Greece was a poor country.

After that period turism picked up.

Record spending by foreigners as Greece's tourism industry slashed prices helped the country's current account post its first surplus last year since official data began in 1948,

Greece joined the European Union in 1981

A Tourism boom drove Greece to the first current account surplus on record

How things have changed.

If the Tourists stop going back to Greece, Greece could struggle to recover.

DulwichFox

[right-clicking]

For Greece to get back on it's feet is entirely in the hands of the people themselves 75+% of the people have never paid any taxes, it's a national sport to evade tax. They are now stripping the assets of their national banks!

Everybody knows that the whole of the old regime was as bent as a nine bob note, who wants to give those thieving bastards a cent I hear them cry!

Now they must fully realise the cold hard facts You gets out what yuou pays in. time to start saving and paying the taxes you usually avoid.

Poly malakia

[????]

Basically Greece's offer on the table now (which looks like it will be rejected) amounts to more or less the same one that the previous Greek Governemnt were accepting but they were at least experiencing growth and not a run on the banks.

I feel desperately sorry for the Greeks but they voted in a load of Lefty-academics whose fanatasy anti-suterity economics and juvenile game thoering has resulted in nothing but a reverse of growth, a deteriotaiing financial position and a massive loss of goodwill in the EU. Still won't bother that bald headed twat on the motorbike who will swan off to some international university gig to teach his failed economics to another generation of academic 'marxists' no doubt.

Out of the Euro now is their best hope and that will still lead to real real hardship but they haven't much of a hope in it.

[Blah Blah]

But to the ordinary Greek person living in such a dire economy, an antithesis to the market based capitalism in place, sounds like a good idea. Can't blame them at all for it.

It's an interesting scenario. The EU doesn't want Greece to leave the EU because of the market crash it will bring accross Europe. The cost of keeping them in the EU is also high. But Germany should remember the lessons of it's own history. Writing off some of it's debt after WW2 helped it to recover. Some of that debt was written off by Greece herself. I don't see why some of Greece's debt can't be written off with a restructered repayment system that gives her economy at least some chance of recovering. They have to get proper tax enforcement in place etc but it can be done.

The alternative is that they leave the EU, get fiscally annexed by Russia, or descend into some kind of civil war, right on the doorstep of the EU.

[Loz]

I think they will get some sort of write-off, but only after they have proven themselves to be fiscally responsible. Plus the EU has already dangled a ?35bn stimulus package under their noses.

Granted, it's not what the Greek government wants (which is to write off the debt and let them go on in their unsustainable way), but frankly it's the best alternative they have. Default would be an absolute disaster for the country. People keep holding up Argentina as a model for how default can work in the long run, but Greece don't have the export industry to pull that one off. (Argentina is still be pursued for money owed, anyway.)

Plus, if the EU let Greece off the hook, then Italy, Spain and Portugal will be wanting the same. That can't be allowed to happen.

[Loz]

So the Greeks have voted No and so, armed with this democratic mandate, Greece is now preparing to put on the table pretty much what was proposed last week, which was based on the document the Greeks just voted No to.

It's like a parallel universe.

[miga]

Au contraire, it's very much normal for leaders of small nations to flip flop on decisions under external pressure. It's what Varoufakis might have even suggested in his resignation post: "Soon after the announcement of the referendum results, I was made aware of a certain preference by some Eurogroup participants, and assorted 'partners', for my ? 'absence' from its meetings; an idea that the Prime Minister judged to be potentially helpful to him in reaching an agreement". C'est la vie.

[Jeremy]

I think at the moment it's about Greece making tiny concessions step by step until they get a deal. But I think the French are more open to helping them out with Varoufakis gone, so they're probably almost there.

Was reading a report by a respected economist today, he thinks the whole mess is largely Germany's fault... buying all the bad Greek debt from the German financials, and then making unrealistic demands from Greece. Attempting to force austerity on the Greek people for the sake of protecting German businesses.

[Loz]

But rabbiting on about democracy and then putting pretty much the same proposal forward is downright hypocrisy. Having a vote is not a bad thing in itself, but what exactly were the Greeks voting against? How are they going to sell it to the Greek people and - more importantly - to the Greek parliament? "It's not the same document at all - this one has a different date on it and we've also changed the font."

And the Varoufakis 'resignation' speech was spin as well. He was elbowed out of the negotiation team for a least a fortnight ago. Even Tsipras saw him as the loose cannon he was, sidelined him and then dumped him as soon as the referendum was over. He was a useful idiot who had ceased to be useful.

[????]

the Euros at fault....as us critics were saying from day one (and quite a lot of its individual members electorates too). There's too much difference on a whole bunch of stuff - economics/politics/culturel/etc and not enough european solidarity as the whole sad affair is showing. Can't have a currency union without a political union should be tatooed on many a eurofanboy's arse....including my dear old friend Huge. :)

[????]

a useful idiot or a narcisstic arse-hole....I know where I put him

[Loz]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Was reading a report by a respected economist today, he thinks the whole mess is largely

> Germany's fault... buying all the bad Greek debt from the German financials, and then making

> unrealistic demands from Greece. Attempting to force austerity on the Greek people for the sake

> of protecting German businesses.

A lot of that is true, though I would say that moving all the debt also has made the Euro economy less likely to collapse should Greece default. As truly colossal a mess this is, had Greece gone under 5 years ago it would have been a real disaster, possibly a repeat of 2008.

[miga]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> But rabbiting on about democracy and then putting

> pretty much the same proposal forward is downright

> hypocrisy. Having a vote is not a bad thing in

> itself, but what exactly were the Greeks voting

> against? How are they going to sell it to the

> Greek people and - more importantly - to the Greek

> parliament? "It's not the same document at all -

> this one has a different date on it and we've also

> changed the font."

Sure, they've flip flopped under external pressure, and changed the team to suit the opposing side. All I'm saying is that this isn't "a parallel universe" but a very pedestrian reality of small/weak nations, standing up like this invariably leads to a shaming reversal of direction down the line.

The referendum can be seen as either a part of the posturing for domestic consumption, or an inconvenient act of resistance that they were too late to stop.

> And the Varoufakis 'resignation' speech was spin

> as well. He was elbowed out of the negotiation

> team for a least a fortnight ago. Even Tsipras saw

> him as the loose cannon he was, sidelined him and

> then dumped him as soon as the referendum was

> over. He was a useful idiot who had ceased to be

> useful.

Agree there is spin - it's politics - but I think the resignation is him now washing his hands of anything Tsipras agrees to. As for him being an idiot (useful or otherwise) - academic and polyglot credentials aside, I recommend you check out some of his writing or speeches on YouTube - you might dislike what he's saying, but and idiot he is not.

[????]

An there we have it

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/jul/10/tsipras-greek-economy-sabre-purpose?CMP=fb_gu

Money tree not found - hard lesson in voting for what you wish for rather than what's realistic.

I feel desperately sorry for most Greek people let down by:

- europe: not showing any solidarity at all

- Their old leaders (and Goldman Sachs) lying to get it and then maxing the credit card

- lefty fantisist politician pretending there was a way out, although the people swallowed it to a degree

5 Wasted months infact they've gone backwards.

Basic economics should be compulsory for everyone, not least left wing academic econmomists it seems.

[Louisa]

I don't understand debt. It's all Greek to me.

Louisa.

[Loz]

The most amazing thing seem to be that they seem to have got away with interpreting the referendum result as "No. We don't like that deal. Please find us a worse one."

On the brighter side for Greece (though a little bit grasping at straws, I admit), Tsipras does seemed to have moved debt relief up the agenda a bit.

It will be interesting to see in the longer term how history judges Varoufakis. Not well, I suspect.

[miga]

It's written by the winners, so you're probably right.

[????]

Varoufakis is almost the living definition of Narcissism. He'll do alright, 'enlightening' the 'lefterati' plastic chicken circuit with his bullshit; featuring in the VIP areas (no looking joke, they exist) at anti-austerity marches with Brand and Church; Left field appearance with Bragg at Glastonbury next year a shoe in; and a book of useless economics for fuckwits which will sell by the shed load, be read by no-one and constantly quoted on Social Media by the brainless.

Greece is fooked tho you middle class lefty cunt.

[miga]

Booooooooooooooring....

[uncleglen]

At last

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11735609/Greece-news-live-Crucified-Tsipras-capitulates-to-draconian-measures-after-17-hours-of-late-night-talks.html

[MrBen]

It's just another limp to an eventual exit. It's painful to watch and overly drawn out.

[????]

Anyone remember Ridley's infamous interview back in 1990... Half of Europe seems to be saying the same now :)

[Louisa]

A doomed project from the start. Never been in favour of European integration, different languages, cultures, work ethics and schools of thought on economics. I'll be voting to leave the EU, not for nationalistic reasons- but for self preservation reasons.

Louisa.

[Earl Aelfheah]

There is no way Greece can meet the conditions imposed upon them. They should leave the euro and start rebuilding their society and economy.