Confusing Speed Limit Signs

[LadyNorwood]

christgill Wrote:

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> LadyNorwood Wrote:

> >

> > I appreciate that, but TfL/Southwark have gone

> to

> > the trouble of marking the road and putting up

> > speed signs for the width of the South Circular

> -

> > by the time you've accelerated from 20 to 30

> > you're back in the 20 zone (if you even have

> the

> > time to do that) - an utterly pointless

> jobsworth

> > piece of crap....

>

> Is this a joke?

>

> The 30mph signs are there so that drivers know

> that, turning onto the South Circular, the new

> speed limit is 30mph - not to provide a two second

> opportunity to floor the accelerator...

No it's not a joke - the signs should be on the South Circular not on Croxted Road.....

[bobbsy]

mako Wrote:

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> A simple example would be waiting longer at

> traffic lights as queues longer. at thirty more

> cars would have made it through

"Flow rates increase at lower speeds because cars can be closer together. "

And mako, doesn't this completely counter the arguement that slower speed limits reduce accidents by increasing the the amount of time people have to react and make decisions? If we all drive closer together and the traffic is more densely packed I think (and no, its not backed by Local Government reasearch, which of course would always be of the highest quality, and completely unbiased) accidents will increase.

[henryb]

> And mako, doesn't this completely counter the

> arguement that slower speed limits reduce

> accidents by increasing the the amount of time

> people have to react and make decisions? If we all

> drive closer together and the traffic is more

> densely packed I think (and no, its not backed by

> Local Government reasearch, which of course would

> always be of the highest quality, and completely

> unbiased) accidents will increase.

Nope. It means the stopping distances will be less so drivers are more able to avoid collision from unexpected situations but it also means cars can be closer together safely.

[bobbsy]

Sorry, I don't buy it. Cars closer together feel to me to be less safe. Peoples reaction times dont change with speed, but you're right, stopping distance does. However experience so far - people are tailgating much much closer when I stick to 20mph.

Add to that - with closer distance beteen cars, there is less scope for other cars to turn onto roads from side roads, therefore I think people will push out into potentially unsafe manouvres, and pedestrians wil have less room to cross between cars, whhioch I think will lead to more pedestrian "darting" across roads.

Yes, these are all feelings, but backed up with my observations. This morning I stuck to 25mph, and had a bus sitting on my rear about as close as they could possibly get. It felt very unsafe.

Other users can quote millions of statistics, but in a nutshell, I don't believe 20mph will provide safer environments on the road.

[spider69]

Confirms what Charles Notice pointed out in a posting yesterday.

[StraferJack]

"In a nutshell"

well, there you have it

[wulfhound]

Cyclists may only undertake generally when congested at the moment but when cars are driving at 15-20 this will be much more common and will be dangerous.

If you undertake a car doing 20mph, you're either Lance Armstrong, an idiot, or both. Personally if I'm on a bike & the traffic's doing a steady 20, I find it much easier to just flow with it, same as I would driving. No need to be in at the side of the road dodging doors, drains, potholes, glass, kids and dogs, and much less likely to get taken out by anyone making a turn without checking mirrors. For the average quick-ish cyclist, 20's great.. if you're slower it doesn't help so much, and if you're *really* fast it's perhaps something of an irriation, IDK.

Anyway, rather than anecdote, surely better to look at data? These schemes are being rolled out widely enough now that if it makes a difference, the evidence will accumulate very quickly, for better or worse.

[bobbsy]

I would still, if all the statisticians who are quoting research can tell me, love to see the accident figures on a per mile figure of 20mph limited roads versus a per mile figure of 30mph limited roads. All we have seen so far is that accidents in 20mph zones are less than in 30mph zones, as there were far far far less 20mph zones than 30's when this was undertaken.

[bawdy-nan]

This is another set of statistics analysed and presented by Danny Dorling. He is Professor of Geography, School of

Geography and the Environment, University of Oxford.

He wrote this for the British Academy who commissioned several experts to look at single actions that could reduce health inequality.

In it he addresses many of the concerns raised on this thread and provides evidence based responses.

http://www.dannydorling.org/wp-content/files/dannydorling_publication_id3924.pdf

[Nigello]

20mph signs being painted on LL near to the junction with CPR this morning.

[bobbsy]

Thank you providing the link. However, the points made in the "broader benfits of 20mph" read just as subjectively as most of our arguements against 20mph on this thread.

I feel closer packed traffic makes it less easy for cars to turn into traffic. He feels it makes it easier for cars to turn into traffic etc etc. I won't go through them 1 by 1, but hasn't done anything to convice me.

I think introduction of blanket 20mph speed limits is an easy way for local government to give the appearance they are improving road safety for constituents without really having to do any work, and one that is hard to disprove its said benefits as there is little useful research available.

[christgill]

> LadyNorwood Wrote:

> No it's not a joke - the signs should be on the

> South Circular not on Croxted Road.....

Well, that would require exactly the same amount of signage (except for "30" and it would be on the SCR...

and it would mean that, technically, the area of road that is both the South Circular AND Croxted Road would have two speed limits - what's the limit for a vehicle turning off the South Circular onto Croxted whilst it's still on the junction?

[rodneybewes]

bobbsy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Thank you providing the link. However, the points

> made in the "broader benfits of 20mph" read just

> as subjectively as most of our arguements against

> 20mph on this thread.

>

> I feel closer packed traffic makes it less easy

> for cars to turn into traffic. He feels it makes

> it easier for cars to turn into traffic etc etc. I

> won't go through them 1 by 1, but hasn't done

> anything to convice me.

>

> I think introduction of blanket 20mph speed limits

> is an easy way for local government to give the

> appearance they are improving road safety for

> constituents without really having to do any work,

> and one that is hard to disprove its said benefits

> as there is little useful research available.

Don't agree that there is little useful research available on the basis that you just don't approve, but even if you do dispute the stats it's only heading one way and probably won't be going back. In twenty years time the next generation will be looking at us askance for not having computer controlled cars. In the meantime we'll be living in a much safer, much duller world.

[catma]

Pickle Wrote:

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> I drove up from Honor Oak Station towards ED last

> night at 9pm, at 20mph. The person behind me

> became so impatient he overtook on a blind corner

> and came very close to a head on collision with a

> bus. Aggressive overtaking has also happened on

> Sydenham Hill on a Sunday morning. I am all for

> 20 mph on side streets, but on the main roads it

> does feel ridiculously slow and is at risk of

> causing accidents due to the impatience of people

> not wanting to drive so slow.

I had the same thing on that stretch by the Rye - I was being aggressively tailgated by a driver because I was keeping to the new limit. He finally overtook me with lots of hand waving and horn blaring. It's just a bit unnerving!

[minder]

I was behind a learner driver this afternoon from Herne Hill to the junction at King's on Denmark Hill and he kept to the 20mph. Bit of a queue behind me but quite nice actually but a bit awkward at the right turn into the station.

Then again noticed that there's big flag blowing material things with 20mph on high posts outside Ruskin Park even though Ruskin Park comes under Lambeth so Lambeth will prob be next with the 20mph.

[wulfhound]

Yes, Lambeth are going 20. Looks likely Lewisham will follow in a year or two. Major A roads - A205, A2, A3, A21, A200, A23 etc. - will be exempted.

[sela]

who's the councillor who introduced it? next time I'll vote for the one in favour of 30mph. all the main roads should be 30mph and money spend on dedicated cycle lanes and not on colour to paint the road with bikes it doesn't really help anyone. I used to cycle to work (Croydon), but after 2 times I'm scared to cycle that route.

at least driving south after the 20mph in Sydenham hill it's all 30mph.

[bluecanary]

At last the signage is improving though more needs to be done to communicate the change. How about some nice big banners on the buses?

[Earl Aelfheah]

Without proper enforcement, it's all just more pointless street clutter.

[wulfhound]

who's the councillor who introduced it?

Labour introduced, Greens also support. Not sure where the Lib Dems stand, am sure Cllr Barber will be able to say.

next time I'll vote for the one in favour of 30mph

Tory or UKIP - some of the latter would like to see speed limits abolished entirely.

I used to cycle to work (Croydon), but after 2 times I'm scared to cycle that route.

Croydon's roads are a law unto themselves. There's a good cycle route all the way, but it's well hidden. Up to the top of Crystal Palace Park on College Road or Farquhar Road, through the park (it's rarely, if ever locked, although sometimes pitch dark), then Hamlet Road, Southern Ave, Holmesdale Road, Dagnall Park, Sydenham Road, you come out by East Croydon station & can avoid Wellesley Road entirely. The main road alternative is pretty bad, driving standards seem to get lower the further south you go (or it's the same low standard and they're all just driving faster, IDK).

[NewWave]

Just tell me what the limit is. A concern for me is getting a speeding ticket, if the limit varies with no logic it makes it less easy to just drive and concentrate on driving safely. I can set my car to have a speed limit and I would set that to 20 if that was the universal limit but it isn't. I aim to keep up with the flow of traffic.

[tfwsoll]

I am driving to Sidcup and Woolwich most days and Lewisham, Bexley and Greenwich have introduced 20mph zones but not consistently so it is difficult to remember what speed you should be driving at. Last night when I drove back down LL I had someone on my tail who decided to overtake at high speed and nearly smashed into oncoming traffic. If slower speeds will cut accidents I am all for them but they need to be consistent and enforced.

[Mason]

I just looked at Gov.uk. nothing has changed with regards to the legallity of 30 MPH travel. There seems to be a conflict between the legalities of the actual speed limit nationwide and the individual councils. Apparently as the council website documents, they are yet to be able to enforse this as the police have yet to agree to this:

4. Who will enforce the speed limit?

The Met Police are responsible for enforcing speed limits in London. Their resources

for speed enforcement are limited as they need to prioritise other issues, such as antisocial

behaviour and violent crimes. To make the most of resources available for

speed enforcement, the Police prioritise roads with high collision rates.

Association of Chief Police Officers Speed Enforcement Policy Guidelines state:

The police service supports all appropriate speed limits where

? There is a proven need

? The limit is clear, looking and feeling like the limit and

? Motorists have the ability to apply.

We are discussing future enforcement in Southwark with the Police and encourage

them to continue enforcement at collision hotspots, including 20 mph streets where

necessary. We are not relying on the Police increasing resources for speed

enforcement for the scheme to succeed, although this would be welcomed.

So how and when this will actually be enforsable is a question yet to be raised. Howvever I feel that many of the roads that they have put up signs are ridiculous Herne Hill to Kings College Hospital, Lordship Lane. They are main arteries to London which they stated would not be affected:

6. Which roads do you propose to include in the speed limit?

We are proposing to include all roads managed by Southwark, but at this stage it is

not known if any ?red routes? which are managed by Transport for London (TFL) will

be included.

Many of Southwark?s roads are already covered by a 20 mph limit and these would

remain although the signage will be reviewed in order to be consistent with the

borough-wide scheme.

7. Why might red routes not be included in the borough-wide 20 mph limit?

As described above the ?red route? network is managed by Transport for London

(TFL) not Southwark Council. TFL has said that it may consider changing the speed

limit to 20 mph on the ?red route? on a case by case basis.

It does just seem that Southwark like other councils are looking at this as a caah cow such as private parking companies.

Even TFL have stated no further cameras will be installed, as theis just semms the conflict of legality in UK speed limit, and indivdual are speed limits seem to clash.

Regards

Mason

[Elephant]

I was driving down village way towards half moon lane at 20 mph at the weekend, tailgated by an aggressive driver then over taken on the bend just befor the bridge. Really scary! Also noticed that the 20 mph limit on half moon lane is not being adhered to at all very dangerous especially for the lollipop lady in the morning and the public using the zebra crossing. This is a crazy situation not thought through at all, would love to see the qualitative data and research that led to this decision.

[henryb]

Elephant Wrote:

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> I was driving down village way towards half moon

> lane at 20 mph at the weekend, tailgated by an

> aggressive driver then over taken on the bend just

> befor the bridge. Really scary! Also noticed that

> the 20 mph limit on half moon lane is not being

> adhered to at all very dangerous especially for

> the lollipop lady in the morning and the public

> using the zebra crossing. This is a crazy

> situation not thought through at all, would love

> to see the qualitative data and research that led

> to this decision.

To your last question this is a report on 20 zones from tfl

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/research-summary-no2-20mph-zones.pdf

but ultimately it was in the 2014 southwark labour party manifesto and they won the election.