Paris shootings - several dead

[Otta]

ernesto Wrote:

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> Otta Wrote:

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> > ernesto Wrote:

> >

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> > > GroveLaneMan Wrote:

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> > > > Appalling and cowardly ! The victims were

> > > engaged

> > > > in satire . Very sad

> > >

> > > Whatever these two chaps are, I would suggest

> > they

> > > are not cowards

> >

> >

> > You don't have to be a coward to perform a

> > cowardly act.

> >

> > Running in to an office and executing a bunch

> of

> > unarmed people is pretty cowardly.+

>

> so is firebombing bombing a city of civilians,yet

> we hand out medals for bravery.

>

> Why do we not call our bomber crews cowards?

Good one.

[ernesto]

semantics and formal niceties aside, not really.

[ernesto]

anyway, not here to lecture. there are plenty of others who do that. arf

[Otta]

Reports now coming through of a gunman with a couple of hostages in a jewelers somewhere in France.

WTF?

[Alan Medic]

So many hostages killed makes me wonder was the best approach taken to bring it to an end. Glad to read the single hostage was freed though there wasn't any mention of it in the news that I watched.

[Loz]

Otta Wrote:

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> Loz that's hardly the first female suicide bomber. I was talking about the people from western

> countries who are getting involved, the majority of whom are youngish men.

Still mostly disagree, then. There have been easily lead angry young (mostly) men looking for a political cause for as long as I remember and longer. Radical Islamism just happens to be the cause de jour. I'm sure in previous times they would have just joined the IRA/Communist party/Red Brigades/PLO/Red Army Faction or whatever happened to be around at the time.

[Otta]

You might be right, but that doesn't disprove what I said.

[ernesto]

the big difference is that trad LW terrorist groups in Europe were arsey bourgeoise, left in the wake of '68 and seeking fellow travellers for support. Ulrike meihoff left her PhD IIRC.the new groups are carefully targetting & recruiting disaffected, dissolusioned culturally displaced yoof.anyother victory for marketers. yay.

[MrBen]

red devil Wrote:

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> Is there a full moon tonight?...

>

> http://timberwolfhq.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01

> /howlingwolf-150x150.jpg

Read the runes RD. Not him. Think much loved forum straight shooter...

[????]

Drop the terrorist Left wingers=arsie bourgeois full stop :)

[miga]

Come on ????, I'm sure you can think of an example that disproves that in seconds.

[Alan Medic]

I know it's easy to go off topic on any thread, but for this? An old joke about a suspected reincarnation where most won't have a clue what you are writing about.

Eta not last couple of posts

[red devil]

Alan Medic Wrote:

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> I know it's easy to go off topic on any thread,

> but for this? An old joke about a suspected

> reincarnation where most won't have a clue what

> you are writing about.

More white pointy hatted bollox Meds.

You're getting good at this, when can you come for the initiation?...

[Otta]

Interesting take on it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/11332535/We-think-the-Paris-terrorists-were-offended-by-Charlie-Hebdos-satire.-What-if-were-wrong.html

[Jeremy]

MrBen Wrote:

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> Think much loved forum straight shooter...

Ah. That would explain the Chomsky-lite ramblings...

[Robert Poste's Child]

Similar arguments to those in the T'graph piece were made in relation to the IRA in the 80s. Take action against an oppressor and a strongly repressive response gives you evidence. Works as long as the trigger event is plausible enough to both sides.

At the time of the London riots a couple of years back I wondered if this was why it took the police a couple of days to clamp down.

At a lower level it's also sometimes evident - just my opinion obviously - in many 'rights' debates - provoking a reaction that proves your point. A good example is the to me very dubious 'slut walk'.

[Jeremy]

I did agree with the line : I don't think the terrorists "win" if we fail to reproduce cartoons

I know a lot of people were calling for the cartoons to be reprinted, but I'm not really sure what that achieves, other than a show of support. The next wave of terrorist attacks will still come against US/UK/France regardless.

[Robert Poste's Child]

In France it's presumably also fuelled by the legacy of Algeria. French cinema has produced many films on the tensions in the suburbs. I guess most Western European countries have their own version of this.

[LadyDeliah]

Did anyone listen to 'Any Questions' on Radio 4 this afternoon? One guy suggested internment for aquaintances and neighbours of anyone who was a terrorist.

Europe is smelling more and more like pre-war germany. Scary shit.

[LadyDeliah]

I had to steal this from Reggie on his thread, incase anyone fails to read it, cos it's class:

"There is an idea going round that all the newspapers should get together, on the same day, and publish a picture of Mohammed in order to demonstrate solidarity against the Paris killings and somehow 'show' how we feel about freedom of speech.

This rubs salt into the wound, why insult muslims further?

So this is an idea.

For the media to publish boldly, on the same day, something that is truly offensive to their own deeply help beliefs or icons but not of an islamic nature. For example, Tatler magazine putting a cartoon of the Queen Mother giving Hitler a blowy...you get my gist.

This would demonstrate the ability to take offence where as the other way simply enrages people already maddened by insult."

[Alan Medic]

As Otta posted earlier, this is hardly about cartoons. It would have nil effect. Once people realise that peace is an individual thing (if ever) then the world will become a better place. But if you aren't looking for peace then it will never happen.

[Blah Blah]

Yes I listened to Radio 4 and was rather troubled by the comments. That would include the family of the killer of Lee Rigby for example, who have nothing to do with his beliefs and acts. They are not even muslims.

I don't know if anyone ever watched 'The Power of Nightmares' (it might be on youtube) but it made the case very strongly for the need of enemies within (and out) as a tools of power over the masses. Keep people afraid of something 'out there' and they will pay less attention to the stuff that really matters (like the economy for example). And all governments use it, and always have.

In reality, islamic terrorist acts are far less frequent than the acts of the IRA were. The same is true for the French (who as someone mentions above has a long histroy of Algerian terrorism). We need to keep a sense of perspective. As truly awful as these acts are, they are the acts of just three men (who are now all dead). More people are murdered by their partners, which could be used to argue that relationships are more dangerous than terrorism.

The media does a very good job of exaggerating the significance of terror acts. IS for example is a war happening thousands of miles away in a region that has always been at war with the outside, since the soviet afghan conflict and before. It's nothing new for Afghanistan and Pakistan, whatever our governments like to tell us. But no-one in government or the media is putting it into perspective like that. They want us all to be afraid.

[El Pibe]

By and large agree with the sentiment of the post, especially with the levels of terrorism in western europe, being less than past insurgencies or even victorian anarchism.

On the Power of Nightmares, I thought it entertaining but very unconvincing. I suspect govenrments like to concentrate on it because it's more fun than engaging with your constituents about the proposed wind farm ;)

Oh and IS is in Syria and now Iraq, traditionally quite stable* countries until we invaded/encouraged a revolution. We're figthing them to keep the shredded remnants of a terrible middle east policy from being in further tatters than it already is.

*if we ignore the odd brutal suppression, war crime or spat with Israel.

[Davis]

.

[Rolo Tomasi]

LadyDeliah Wrote:

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> Did anyone listen to 'Any Questions' on Radio 4

> this afternoon? One guy suggested internment for

> aquaintances and neighbours of anyone who was a

> terrorist.

>

> Europe is smelling more and more like pre-war

> germany. Scary shit.

Yes I heard that. Couldn't quite believe it. Like you said, Scary shit out there.