Paris shootings - several dead

[steveo]

Redact

[El Pibe]

.

sorry, serious thread.

[maxxi]

El Pibe Wrote:

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> .

>

> sorry, serious thread.

maybe but I have a feeling some of those who were attacked may have appreciated the sentiment even as they criticised the topicality.

[grabot]

Uncleglen's comment matches my understanding that the Catholic church [and the church of England for that matter] is becoming progressively more evangelical:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/8953721/here-comes-the-god-squad-what-the-new-pope-and-the-new-archbishop-have-in-common/

Religion in general is something that I find increasingly worrying, having been largely in favour of it in the past.

I generally agree with Salman Rushdie's statement:

"'Religion, a mediaeval form of unreason, when combined with modern weaponry becomes a real threat to our freedoms.

'This religious totalitarianism has caused a deadly mutation in the heart of Islam and we see the tragic consequences in Paris today.

'I stand with Charlie Hebdo, as we all must, to defend the art of satire, which has always been a force for liberty and against tyranny, dishonesty and stupidity.

'"Respect for religion? has become a code phrase meaning ?fear of religion."

'Religions, like all other ideas, deserve criticism, satire, and, yes, our fearless disrespect."

[El Pibe]

Given that christianity is by definition evangelical I'm not sure what that means, but both are certainly trying to become more progressive in the face of very conservative resistance

aaaanyway

far be it for me to defend religion, but i don't think any of this has anything to do with religion really, at least much less than it appears on the surface.

I've been saying for years (search as far back as mockney and I'm sure you'll find examples) that the vision and philosophy of al qaeda and now isis, owes a far greater debt to anarchist and communist revolutionaries than it does to suras or the hadith.

Actions like this particularly bring to my mind the red brigades, shining path et al, and this belief in a utopia, whether somethingist or a caliphate again has that revolutionary zeal with a legacy to the likes of Marx or Bakunin.

And it's not even been that destructive when you compare it to the 20th century's worldwide attempts through violence to create these societies from year 0.

Islamism will eventually burn out. isis's miserable failure will be a good start, and is already on its way, (and i think i used this aalogy before) but virulent fatal illneses aren't very good at propogating themselves, ebola is too deadly to spread far and isis is surely the ebola of insurgencies.

likewise insurgencies stand or fall by the support of the locals, and when isis police chiefs are appearing in town squares, decapitated with a ciggie in their mouth and a notice saying 'hand off our tobacco' you've got to think they're not that long for the world, especially now they're being pressed on a number of fronts and there's serious talk of a compromise with assad in the offing.

Which of course won't remove this problem, it'll metamorphosise, it'll spread, there will be more of this sort of thing and our socieites will of course survive.

WHat is paramount is, as D_C says, that our way of life is preserved, our fundamental freedoms, and the tenets of free speech and freedom to express yourself are not sacrificed.

But i thoroughly agree with the way 'respect for' or 'offended by' have become code words for shutting down debate or artistic expression. But neither islam nor religion have monopoly on that, that's a much wider malaise and very much an internal western one too.

[jctg]

I just don't know.

[steveo]

A commentator on, I think Al Jazeera, pointed out that radical Islamists have killed far more Islamists than non Islamists.

I'm not sure what that means though

[El Pibe]

I guess it mostly means they're not very nice. Ultimately it's vision is about establishing a new Islamic age, and fostering social conflict in order to achieve that (anarchist 101).

Realistically you need to do this in the middle east, Pakistan or wherever you are, hence the death toll.

Though they love a good snooked c0ck at the west it's not a clash of civilisations, it's a clash within one civilisation.

Attacks within Western nations are almost always by people who were born there and have channeled their petty resentments into a neat angry cause that gives them all that angry self affirmation and a neat enclosed loop to both revenge and salvation and a nice v1rgin to boot (or grapes according to the original translation).

Columbine where they get the girl, if that's not too crass a comparison.

[grabot]

I would imagine all ideologists who find themselves in a system that does not suit their particular ideology will seek to remove the archos. Nothing new there. As you suggested, the ideology could have a secular or religious nature. The specific problem with religion, though, is that it requires no material frame of reference and as such can run unchecked for thousands of years.

Disagree on Evangelicism by the way. Strictly speaking, by most definitions a Catholic cannot be evangelical. But, the popular understanding of the word is zealous and conservative. I would point to the growing charismatic movement as evidence of evangelical growth.

[El Pibe]

aah my bad, evangelism vs evangelicalism, like liberalism versus libertarianism I guess.

I'm not convinced that the trend in either church is headed that way though. At least the head folk are certainly trying their best to go the opposite direction.

[MelonSmasher]

I see the attacks as a violent response to the years and years of Muslim baiting by European media. Interestingly, a person, a cartoonist or editor I presume, was sacked from the same agency for antisemitic content. Why is it that when it comes to antisemitism we have laws in place to prevent such sentiments while Islamaphobia is allowed to continue unchecked since 9-11? The way I see it, this was bound to happen. If any uk newspaper does decide to print the pictures again, I can only see it inflaming the situation more

[grabot]

Welby and Francis? I'm not convinced. Welby is a man who describes speaking in tongues as routine. I would describe it as downright mental! I know it's not really fair bashing Christians at this point. They weren't responsible for events in Paris. I just worry about generalised growth in ideological zeal and the cognitive dissonance and conflict that that engenders.

[Mason]

Lest we forgot the families of those that lost their lives in this tragic display of terrorism, not Islamism. May God be with the families of friend and family of those who err on courage to speak their minds!

[uncleglen]

Well said Salman Rushdie. And, of course, total common sense from Richard Dawkins http://www.salon.com/2015/01/07/richard_dawkins_goes_on_anti_islam_rant_blames_charlie_hebdo_massacre_on_entire_religion/

[MrBen]

I hate to state the obvious. But if a sleeping cell of IS guys armed with semi automatic weapons and rocket launchers is able to reside and strike in.a city like Paris as it has done then it's a near certainty the same exists over here in London.

[JohnL]

I think people are much more careful about what they say about Islam

than other religions - It's much easier for instance to attack the Old

Testament and Yahweh - even though the OT is shared by Islam and Judaism.

MelonSmasher Wrote:

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> I see the attacks as a violent response to the

> years and years of Muslim baiting by European

> media. Interestingly, a person, a cartoonist or

> editor I presume, was sacked from the same agency

> for antisemitic content. Why is it that when it

> comes to antisemitism we have laws in place to

> prevent such sentiments while Islamaphobia is

> allowed to continue unchecked since 9-11? The way

> I see it, this was bound to happen. If any uk

> newspaper does decide to print the pictures again,

> I can only see it inflaming the situation more

[JohnL]

Police Chase going on now apparently

and Stephen Fry giving his view (calling on the world to publish)

[Louisa]

Personally the most shocking thing I have heard about this entire barbaric event is that two of these murderers are still on the run. With all the resources of the French police and special forces, why have they not been found? Can you imagine god forbid something similar happening in London? I'd like to think that they would have been caught by now. I guess our guys are more experienced at dealing with terrorism.

Louisa.

[JohnL]

Police chasing a Peugeot on the A2 near Paris with hostages - things moving fast

[ernesto]

MrBen Wrote:

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> I hate to state the obvious. But if a sleeping

> cell of IS guys armed with semi automatic weapons

> and rocket launchers is able to reside and strike

> in.a city like Paris as it has done then it's a

> near certainty the same exists over here in

> London.

there certainly is weaponry available in the UK, but not to the same degree as in contintental europe, with minimal border checking going, its easier to move them around.

[ernesto]

Looks like there was not a plan B for this pair, no support network to merge into, no Spiral style fellow travellers to hide them- they have been on the run for a few days now with no apparent plan. We already gleaned that they were wankers, but it seems they are solo wankers.I would think these will not be taken alive.

[red devil]

Louisa Wrote:

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> Personally the most shocking thing I have heard

> about this entire barbaric event is that two of

> these murderers are still on the run. With all the

> resources of the French police and special forces,

> why have they not been found? Can you imagine god

> forbid something similar happening in London? I'd

> like to think that they would have been caught by

> now. I guess our guys are more experienced at

> dealing with terrorism.

>

> Louisa.

Once you get outside Paris you can very quickly be in rural France, whereas London and it's environs is much more of an urban sprawl. France is a much bigger, more open, rural country than the UK. The forest where they were allegedly holed up in is bigger than Paris. France also doesn't have the extent of CCTV camera coverage that the main UK cities and towns have...

This has reminded me that I owe you a reply in the 'town planning' thread, catch you later doll...

[Loz]

Banksy's view....

[steveo]

It's actually Lucille Clerc's view

[StraferJack]

except that isn't Banksy