Ched Evans situation

[Robert Poste's Child]

I get that, but what size of ego would you need to persist with that when you've been tried, convicted and sent to prison and your mates are devoting themselves to annihilating the person you've been judged to have wronged? He could easily have found a way to take responsibility for his part in the situation, and I bet since it happened he's had lawyers and PR people advising him to do that.

(Crossed with above; was replying to Otta's.)

[Mustard]

He would have been an interesting candidate for In the Psychiatrist's Chair. He must be really stupid to be carrying on the way he is.

[red devil]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Can I just make this VERY VERY clear. I am not

> saying that what he did was any less of a rape

> than dragging a girl down am ally. I was simply

> saying that I suspect (and could be wrong) that in

> HIS mind they are different.

Rape is rape, and this was certainly rape, but when it comes to sentencing the circumstances of the rape do make a difference. As for the whole apology issue, if he apologised now I think it would all ring a bit hollow, more out of self-preservation than genuine remorse. I agree with SJ, he's not a very nice person period...

[Otta]

He's a monumental prick, I agree with everything SJ says, but SJ says all that from the perseptive of a bright and decent man.

I can't claim to know what Evans is thinking, but if I were forced to guess it would be something like "That slag was well up for it and we shagged then she claimed rape to get some money."

He is NEVER going to say sorry if that is indeed how he's thinking. In HIS mind, he's been totally stitched up and wronged and this girl has destroyed HIM (not the other weay around).

[JohnL]

If he didn't admit guilt - why didn't he serve the full sentence

I thought admission of guilt was a prerequisite for parole.

[*Bob*]

He doesn't think he's done anything wrong.

You can bet your ass that an unpleasantly sizeable portion of young gentlemen on the terraces don't think he's done anything wrong either. I mean it wazzunt that bad of a rape wazzit, lads?

Rightly or wrongly, him being allowed to play again at such a level is now linked to how serious - or not - his crime is perceived as being.

For these reasons it's important he doesn't get what he wants - until him and a load of other people who think like him - stop thinking like they think.

[Loz]

1) He still has appeals ongoing. 'Showing remorse' may be seen as accepting guilt, so I can see why he hasn't.

2) I agree that he should have taken a public role to reel his 'supporters' in. What that girl has gone through is completely and utterly unacceptable. I understand the police have arrested quite a few of the scum.

The Guardian, after a slew of their standard knee-jerk articles, actually produced a rather well-thought out one yesterday. Essentially it comes down to "if the law is wrong, lets fix that'. Making special rules/punishment for high-profile is basically wrong.

Should he be allowed to return to football? There is no law to say he shouldn't, but there are several good reasons that he shouldn't. It's okay to say "an electrician would be able to return to work and earn a living". Replace "electrician" with "teacher / doctor / social worker" and that argument crumbles.

Actually, there are clear rules in place here already - it's called the DBS system. Should you want to return to work as teacher/doctor/social worker, you would be prevented by law. There is no current law preventing you becoming an electrician or a footballer.

So if you don't like it, get the law changed. But trying to make special, retroactive rules for one person isn't right, IMHO.

[JohnL]

Just saw this ....

"When a jury acquitted McDonald the pair celebrated by banging heads together in the dock.

But Evans face then turned to despair as jurors announced he had been found guilty of rape.

Judge Merfyn Hughes QC said: "You have thrown away the successful career in which you were engaged.""

[Alan Medic]

I probably haven't read enough so maybe someone can answer this question. If the girl was so intoxicated that she couldn't have consented to having sex with him how on what grounds did the other guy get off?

[alice]

My understanding from what ive read is that when CE arrived she was unconscious and unable therefore to give consent.

[Loz]

Alan Medic Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I probably haven't read enough so maybe someone can answer this question. If the girl was so

> intoxicated that she couldn't have consented to having sex with him how on what grounds did the

> other guy get off?

Because it's not actually whether person A gives consent, but whether person B has reasonable belief consent was given.

As she arrived at the hotel with McDonald the jury believed there was reasonable grounds for him to believe consent was there (plus apparently she was an 'active participant'). Whereas for Evans, because he arrived later they did not believe he had similar grounds.

[Otta]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Actually, there are clear rules in place here

> already - it's called the DBS system. Should you

> want to return to work as teacher/doctor/social

> worker, you would be prevented by law. There is

> no current law preventing you becoming an

> electrician or a footballer.

I thought that was basically what I said.

[Loz]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I thought that was basically what I said.

I'm confused at your position, then. Do you think he should be able to play football again or not?

[Loz]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> She might when it becomes clear he'll never be on a footballer's salary again ;-)

Her father is absolutely loaded and is the money behind Evans' legal team. In fact, he's told Oldham he will personally cover any loss of sponsors they might suffer if the sign Evans.

[Otta]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Otta Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I thought that was basically what I said.

>

> I'm confused at your position, then. Do you think

> he should be able to play football again or not?

I would rather not unless he changes his tune, but he won't. But that's just my moral reasoning, it has nothing to do with whether he has a legal right to play again.

Interesting what you say about his girlfriend's dad, I never knew that.

[El Pibe]

i thought the show of remorse potentially affecting the appeal equally so.

Although I would have thought the best tactic was shut the hell up full stop, rather than blab to every newspaper and daytime talk show that'll have him as the pantomime villain du jour.

[????]

The problem is that he fundamentally doesn't,t believe he's guilty. He's wrong absolutely but by his warped sense of morality he thinks he's her victim. So we won't get contrition, acknowledgement, remorse or even him asking people not to stop harassing her. For this reason, wot *bob* said

[Otta]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The problem is that he fundamentally doesn't,t

> believe he's guilty. He's wrong absolutely but by

> his warped sense of morality he thinks he's her

> victim. So we won't get contrition,

> acknowledgement, remorse or even him asking people

> not to stop harassing her. For this reason, wot

> *bob* said

This is what I've been trying to say, but better put.

[LadyNorwood]

At the risk of being pilloried - I've been in much the same situation as the girl who was raped (drunk/footballer/ sexual assault) - I was drunk, I was star struck, I was in a hotel, he was a well-known footballer. I don't see myself as a "victim" - I was a star struck, drunk, young woman who put myself in a vulnerable situation - I don't for one moment think I "deserved" it, but I am also realistic enough to recognise that there are degrees of rape - I wasn't beaten, I wasn't dragged into an alleyway and left for dead, all of which I'm thankful for.... I was culpable to a certain extent - granted he shouldn't have done what he did, but then neither should I. I'm not defending Ched Evans by any means but I fully expect the indignation and wrath of the EDF to plummet on my head....

[Otta]

Not at all LadyNorwood. A female colleague of mine was saying much the same (not that she'd been there, but about the girl being responsible for herself).

However, if she was unconscious when he had sex with her, that is grim in it's own way.

[aquarius moon]

You said 'if' she was unconscious. Do we know that she actually was or just very drunk?

Because it does make a difference. Maybe that's why he doesn't think he's done anything wrong because he just thought she was drunk and consenting.

We weren't there so don't really know.

[????]

No. Buy a jury has heard the evidence and found him guilty.

[Loz]

That's always confused me - what if both parties wake up in the morning, don't remember anything but it seems certain sex has taken place. Both complain to the police. Who gets charged?

[indiepanda]

LadyNorwood Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> At the risk of being pilloried - I've been in much

> the same situation as the girl who was raped

> (drunk/footballer/ sexual assault) - I was drunk,

> I was star struck, I was in a hotel, he was a

> well-known footballer. I don't see myself as a

> "victim" - I was a star struck, drunk, young woman

> who put myself in a vulnerable situation - I don't

> for one moment think I "deserved" it, but I am

> also realistic enough to recognise that there are

> degrees of rape - I wasn't beaten, I wasn't

> dragged into an alleyway and left for dead, all of

> which I'm thankful for.... I was culpable to a

> certain extent - granted he shouldn't have done

> what he did, but then neither should I. I'm not

> defending Ched Evans by any means but I fully

> expect the indignation and wrath of the EDF to

> plummet on my head....

I don't know quite where I stand on this. On the one hand I am always a bit cautious when drinking - like to be confident I can get myself home safely and not do anything too silly. Just as I lock my front door when I go out rather than leave it open for burglars to get in.

But on the other hand.... when people start to talk about degrees of rape, I start to feel uncomfortable.

We all know we have a horribly low conviction rate in rape cases in this country and many go unreported altogether. I don't like the idea that you have to be beaten to within an inch of your life by a stranger as well as forced to have sex against your wishes to stand a decent chance of getting justice rather than being blamed for wearing a short skirt, being a bit drunk and "asking for it".

As for Evans, as so many others have stated, it's the lack of acknowledgement for what he has done and the continuing horrors his victim is facing that make me feel it's unacceptable for him to return to what might not be a top flight football job, but still a decently paid one, and one which puts him in the position of having young kids looking up to him and possibly being able to do the same again to another woman.

[aquarius moon]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> No. Buy a jury has heard the evidence and found

> him guilty.

I know that. All I'm saying is that as far as he's concerned he's done nothing wrong & is trying to clear his name.