birth experiences at kings

[mong17]

Hello I am due in July and probably going to ask for elective cs after awful birth last time. Anyone got recent birth experiences at kings especially c sections? But interested generally in care there so any recent birth stories welcome! If you have name of good surgeon there or at St Thomas's even better. Thanks

[keane]

Hi I had elective c section with baby no 2 & 3 after very traumatic first birth. I would really recommend Leonie Penner at Kings who did my c section & understood why I was traumatised by first birth. Pm me if u need any more info.

[peggoula]

I was seen by obstetrician mr Dennes after a horrendous first experience and he recommended an elective as there was no guarantee it wouldn't happen again.

Himself and a midwife (based at kings) looked after me and made sure I was signed off to do that as I was not going through the trauma again. I had my little boy at 12:45, was up to the toilet by 4pm and out home the next morning.

I cannot recommend it enough, as far as births go it was as good as it gets.

If you need more info please PM me.

[Tallulahdoesthehula]

Really positive experience of elective c section at Kings.

My son was born lunchtime, I was showering myself the same day and out the next morning.

Fantastic!

My consultant was Leonie Penner who is fantastic. She wasn't my surgeon but the two (female) surgeons I had were very good and the scar is invisible!

[northdulmum]

Another vote for kings elective c-section

I was out 2 days later (was allowed out 1 day but wanted to stay another to avoid my lively toddler).

The 'terrible' recovery I'd been warned about never materialised. I took far longer to recover from my first natural birth.

I refused induction, so wasn't assigned a consultant as such. Had to fight to get section when I was 2 weeks over due. But managed and so very very grateful and thankful I did. I loved it!

[mong17]

Thanks to all those posters. That has convinced me an ecs is the right choice. Just got to convince the medical establishment!

[AnaCarmen]

Hi ladies,

I am due my first baby in a week (!). All my life I had thought that if I ever had a baby I would choose an elective caesarean but then I felt pregnant and after a lot of reading and discussing with doctors and midwifes, I opted for a natural birth.

And now that it is so near, I am, of course, not panicking, but definitely unsure about it.

My question in case anyone can help is: being a week away, it would definitely be too late to try and reverse my decision wouldn't it...?

Thanks!

Ana

[mong17]

I imagine you could change your mind but you may need a good reason. Not sure. Its such a difficult decision and I would not be choosing a cs unless I had such a bad experience last time. A lot of women do manage natural births without any major issue. I am quite small and I don't think that helped. My mum also had 4 terrible births so I had an inkling I would too. Good luck whatever you choose. Speak to the midwives and hospital asap if you definitely want to change your mind.

[Saffron]

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Caesarean-section/Pages/Introduction.aspx

I think it would be unlikely that you could realistically have a planned surgery scheduled on the NHS before your baby arrives naturally, if your due date is only ~1wk away! But definitely speak to your midwives about your concerns. xx

When a caesarean might be needed

A caesarean section is usually carried out when a normal vaginal birth could put you or your unborn baby at risk ? for example, because:

-your labour doesn't progress naturally

-you have placenta praevia (where the placenta is low lying in the womb and covering part of the womb's entrance)

-you have had two or more previous caesarean sections

-your baby is in the breech (bottom first) position

Read more about when a caesarean section is necessary...

Pregnant women are not immediately entitled to a caesarean section if they do not have any physical or mental need for it. If you ask for the operation, you will be asked why you're requesting it and you'll be given information about the risks and benefits. You should be allowed to have a caesarean if, after discussion and support, you still want to have the operation.

A caesarean section is major surgery, and many women opt for a vaginal birth after learning more about what the surgery involves.

New guidelines

In 2011, the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) published guidelines on caesarean sections. This aimed to avoid unnecessary operations.

NICE made a few new recommendations:

Some women who are HIV positive and women who have had a previous birth by caesarean section should be offered the option of a vaginal birth.

Women should be given antibiotics before (rather than after) surgery to prevent infection.

If a woman requests a caesarean section because she's anxious about childbirth, she should be referred to a healthcare professional with expertise in providing mental health support. She should be offered a planned caesarean if, after discussion and support, she still feels a vaginal birth is not an acceptable option.

[AnyaJoeli]

I'm having an elcs tomorrow after a hideous first induced labour experience which ended in a crash section. Kings agreed to the elcs with no probs, they were very supportive of either option vbac or elcs and I didn't experience any pushing (excuse the pun) in either direction. As it happens Ive had health issues which forced the decision against attempting a vbac. Leonie penna has been my consultant as well and she's lovely, very understanding and supportive and calm.

Obviously I'm yet to have my actual birth experience second time round but I'm keeping fingers and toes crossed that it's wholeheartedly more positive than my my son's...

Ana I would say that a complication-free natural birth is always preferable for you and baby and in terms of recovery much easier. But this is easier said than done I know! But you would struggle to have an nhs hospital agree to an elcs without strong medical reason. Try to relax if you can, I think the anticipation of labour can often be more stressful than labour itself! Good luck with it all.

[minder]

Good luck tomorrow Anya.

I had my first child 22 years ago at King's and due to him being born 4 weeks early and born within 4 hours from first contraction until birth and then being strapped down on a bed, I vowed to do it differently the next time.

I don't remember elective c's ever being an option then but I chose to stand up giving birth the second and third time around (the way a lot of women give birth in Third World countries I was told by my midwife) and everything was a lot better (just about)! Women on my ward had c's and couldn't get out of bed as it is a major op e.g. no lifting, even a kettle, or driving for at least 6 weeks but everybody has a different threshold.

Anacarmen, don't worry, everything will be ok and you couldn't get better care than at King's and with Saffron's advice too.

[mong17]

In contrast to that last post I did everything according to the 'active birth' philosophy last time. I did yoga all through the pg, was fit and walked for hours during early labour. I used a ball and squatted over it and the bed until I was fully dilated with no pain relief. However, 48 hours later my baby still was not born and hence emergency forceps in theatre, post partum haemerrage and retained placenta. What the NCT and other proponents of active birth don't make clear enough in my opinion is that it is no guarantee the birth will go faster or smoothly. The concurrent rise in women going to NCT classes and ending up with emergency cs makes this pretty clear!

[MarianaTrench]

Dr Dennes no longer works at King's by the way.

Can you actually choose (on the NHS) who will do your ELCS?

[AnyaJoeli]

Hi there

I had my elcs on Monday, all went well and the team at Kings were great, it's really busy at the moment so the amount of electives was over their normal amount which meant we were supposed to be seen by the elective team and the consultant jemma johns was going to be delivering my baby, but scheduling and general business of the labour ward got in the way so we were shifted to being the last one of the day and dealt with by the emergency team. They were great I absolutely can't fault them, but re the question above I dont as far as I know think you can "book" or guarantee the consultant who will deliver.

Slightly tired and baby brained at the moment but any specific questions give me a shout. The whole experience was a million times better than with my first. And that's even factoring in the fact that I reacted badly to the spinal and was very sick after the operation. And I hate being sick...!

[verds]

I really feel for anyone who's had a bad experience with their first birth. I did, and second time round I booked in with the Kings midwives and told them how scared I was. They referred me to see the psychologist, who was brilliant, and a week before I was due I cried at my midwife appointment and she was amazing - sent me straight up to the maternity dept to go through my birth notes with one of the senior staff.

When I did go into labour Leonie Penna was amazing and ventoused the baby out like some kind of genius.

Good luck - I think Kings is great.

[northdulmum]

I think Kings, as with many teaching hospitals, are amazing when things get complicated / go wrong. However, when things are 'normal' and 'low risk', women are let down.

Most of the first-birth experiences above (I'm willing to bet) probably could have been prevented with decent care in the first place or perhaps a structural change in attitude to pain / delivery method.

Women so often walk away wondering what the hell happened, often shell shocked and in massive pain.

When I had my elective C-section, I was treated like a genuinely cared for patient. I was asked if I felt anything (WTF?!), if I was ok, if I was comfortable. Such a different experience to when I had my 'natural' birth.

The attitude was so different. Pain and horror was not going to happen. They were going to make sure you and the baby were safe and ok. That is what a lot of women want and you cant blame them.

[mong17]

Thanks that's v helpful. Its not actually the birth part that scares me but the possibility of hours of pre labour at home without any pain relief. Once I got into hospital last time I was OK but by then was exhausted after 3 nights of no sleep. Perhaps I need to go in when the pain starts and refuse to leave!!

[AnyaJoeli]

Totally agree northdulmum...I feel exactly the same.

I also want to put a huge vote of confidence in the lanes midwife team...if I had been with them first time round it may well have been a very different experience just in terms of the support and shock etc. Had my health not dictated, the lanes may well have taken me to a successful vbac.

I went through my first birth notes with Jill demilew a supervising midwife and she was wonderlful and supportive too, made me aware and understand certain aspects...and feel justifiably angry about others...

[mee mee]

..

[sillywoman]

mong17 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What the NCT and other proponents of active birth don't make clear enough in my opinion is that it is no guarantee

the birth will go faster or smoothly. The concurrent rise in women going to NCT classes and ending up with emergency cs makes this pretty clear!

Mong17, as a local NCT teacher I am alarmed to see this posted on an open forum. Please can you supply me with a link the research to back up your claim that emergency caesarean is concurrent with attending `NCT classes? I have never come across any studies that suggest such a link, and my personal course statistics do not bear out your comments. I have a feeling that this statement may just be your personal opinion and not evidence based at all, if so please could you make this clear?

Thankyou.

[GinaG3]

I've had two babies at Kings, although both were vaginal births. I wouldn't have a second thought about delivering there or recommending delivering there.

My first birth (6 years ago!) was all fine, my wishes were respected, I was cared for compassionately and everything went smoothly. The only downside to my first birth was the aftercare in the ward could of been better, I discharged myself 9 hours after birth as I couldn't stand the claustrophobic nature of hospital and the emotional wangle of the ward staff over my daughters reluctance to breastfeed, she was hours old! With my first I laboured in kings for 3 hours, for those 3 hours I was looked after by the same person and had no intervention, I was asked at every stage what I wanted to do.

I just had my second there 5 weeks ago, and the care somehow excelled the first birth experience. I would go as far as to say my care there was exceptional. I had a lot of problems during the pregnancy with my blood, phlebotomy were great, the obstetricians were great, my community care was brilliant and all round I felt very reassured through a very stressful time. I chose to birth in the midwife led unit with this birth and it was incredible - yes I'd go as far as to say that. I laboured for 1.5 hours and panicked a bit at the speed of my labour but they relaxed me quickly. I gave birth in a relaxed environment, with no help, no intervention and no monitoring. I was again given options all along the way, had no-one telling me what to do, midwife helped me birth by myself, giving us plenty of space. I had 3 midwives present due to shift change and a student being involved. They were great with delaying cord clamping and a physiological third stage labour even when it was starting to take longer than they would like. Yet again I discharged myself for my own sanity but the ward staff this time were much better (I even had the same woman, who had remembered my tantrum about discharge 6 years ago!)

I'd recommend Kings hands down for their care of pregnant women, even more so now than with my first birth. No matter what happened in my labour I would of felt safe in their hands. I won't use certain other Kings departments, and prefer to be under the care of St Thomas' or Guys but for pregnancy I'd stick with Kings. We're lucky to have such brilliant care so close.

[mong17]

sillywoman Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> mong17 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > What the NCT and other proponents of active

> birth don't make clear enough in my opinion is

> that it is no guarantee

> the birth will go faster or smoothly. The

> concurrent rise in women going to NCT classes and

> ending up with emergency cs makes this pretty

> clear!

>

> Mong17, as a local NCT teacher I am alarmed to see

> this posted on an open forum. Please can you

> supply me with a link the research to back up your

> claim that emergency caesarean is concurrent with

> attending `NCT classes? I have never come across

> any studies that suggest such a link, and my

> personal course statistics do not bear out your

> comments. I have a feeling that this statement may

> just be your personal opinion and not evidence

> based at all, if so please could you make this

> clear?

>

> Thankyou.

Yes I will respond to this. My comment did not in any way suggest that NCT classes cause difficult births. This was not my intention. My point is that the principles of active birthing will not prevent difficult births is many cases.

I have a strong opinion derived from personal experience, the experiences of my fellow 7 NCT class members, and other friends and family to support this view.

I will be totally up front in saying the NCT class content concerns me. It does not paint a realistic picture of what birth could be like (not for everyone but for many), or the exhausting and lonely experience that new motherhood can be like.

Of my NCT group, 4 ended up with ecs after lengthy and traumatic births. Personally I had to have counselling following the birth trauma and ended up with severe pnd. These aspects of motherhood were not covered in much detail in the classes I attended. I can't of course comment on your classes.

I do remember feeling like a total failure for many many months (hence the counselling) for not giving birth actively as the NCT classes (and books recomended in the class) led me to believe was a reaslistic and likely goal.

The only thing that saved my sanity in the end was following a routine (Gina ford/baby whisperer) which was very frowned upon in my nct classes. Breast feeding on demand day and night was the key messasge i took away. Again, in my class, 5 of us followed routines and we had babies who all slept through by 6 months. One girl who followed the demand feeding/baby led mantra is still getting up several times a night with her 3 year old and has to sleep next to his bed to get him to settle at night.

I notice a thread on this forum about night nurses and sleep specialists to deal with these problems.

I am not saying demand feeding and attachment parenting causes sleep problems but anecdotally in my experience the two I are linked.

So does the NCT have evidence to back up its messages to women in these classes? Can it present a more balanced picture which explains the possible birth outcomes and makes clear that sometimes it makes no difference what women do - they might have a long difficult medically assisted birth. And, that there are different ways to feed and raise babies and none are right or wrong?

[Saffron]

My NCT course coordinator (not sillywoman, btw), did an excellent job of covering all these aspects, even the negative ones.

Yes, there ARE numerous studies across different countries to suggest that the use of active birthing devices (birthing chairs, swiss balls, etc) lead to more positive outcomes (i.e., less perceived pain, less interventions etc) than non-active labour and birthing styles (i.e., recumbent, stirrups, etc). (Gau 2011; Swelling 2006; Ang 1969; Humphrey 1974; Scott 1963; Caldeyro-Barcia 1960; M?ndez-Bauer 1975; Gold 1950; Borell 1957; Russell 1969; Gupta 1991; Lilford 1989; Russell 1982; Gupta 1999)

Some of your wording above makes it sound like King's are medically negligent, which would be a pretty strong accusation if that's what you meant. However, reading your recent reply, I think you didn't intend that? And your opinion is certainly coloured by your own unfortunate experience. Tbh, it sounds like you were just v unlucky, I hope it will be easier next time round.

But as for getting up in the night / not sleeping through the night-- that's not a sleep problem. That's normal physiological sleep. If your/friends' babies sleep though, that's lovely and good on ya. But it isn't anthropologically or medically accurate to compare this to physiological sleep in the context of sleep problems, and it reall really isn't helpful or supportive for people who are finding sleep difficult for any variety of reasons.

Best of luck next time round. xx

[AnyaJoeli]

Yep totally agree re attachment parenting/sleep "problems" Saffron and that's a whole other debate to start on here and a pretty emotive one (I had a non sleeper but I'm not a gina mum instinctively, but I don't think its necessarily related...who knows what my second will be like, I know a set of twins who have completely different sleep characters - same parents same routine).

Re nct...I felt personally I was given lots of info and lots of tools to deal with various eventualities and felt I had pretty much heard of a lot of things that could go awry in labour by the end of the course, and had read loads about birth without fear, hypnobirthing etc etc myself and felt confident and good until preeclampsia reared its ugly head in my first birth story, but I don't feel cheated by nct. The thing with birth is that you can be really lucky or really unlucky and the trouble is with a traumatic birth that nothing, nothing will prepare you for it and no amount of hearing potential horror stories will do anything but raise your stress levels about it. No course could adequately prepare you for the pain, lack of control and the lack of sleep and the potential post traumatic stress of a very difficult birth experience. But even a great birth experience can be shocking and take its toll on body and spirit. I think the key is that birth and parenting is all a bit of a shock especially first time round and I don't think the nct can ever promise that it will send you away fully prepared for any eventuality but that's probably only realistic and why talking and listening to others is always going to be handy postnatal to work through anything that arises. We're very used to controlling things in our lives and birth is something that isn't very easy to plan and order.

[mong17]

I agree with the last poster that these are emotive subjects which go way past the advice I was originally seeking with starting this post! There are very polarised views and I am probably at one end and some of the posters above are at other ends and we can agree to disagree. I wont get into the evidence or research into these things either. I am a lawyer who has read plenty of both and also worked in medical negligence for years so dont get me started.

What I will say to Saffron is that I never accused Kings of being negligent. I have never been treated in Kings before that was the whole point of this post. I want to know what its like.

If you mean I am accusing the NCT of being negligent then no, I am simply speaking about my experience of the NCT classes and those of friends and family around me. It sounds like other posters have had much better experiences than me and my fellow classmates/friends and thats great.

Women are really vulnerable when they have just given birth and any person or orgaisaiton who makes them feel guilty for anything that is out of their control is aborrent in my opinion. Or makes them feel guilty for choices they make in terms of feeding etc if the baby is not harmed by it. Women always feel guilty about something - far more than men! and its usually caused by fellow women.

Anyway, if the NCT has changed, or alot of classes provide better information I am very pleased about that. Perhaps I was just unlucky.