Harriet Harman's comments on East Dulwich

[Huguenot]

I don't understand your question?

[Louisa]

Snap.

Louisa.

[Huguenot]

Okay, rise to it...

Somebody's lost out, have they?

Who?

[SeanMacGabhann]

this doesn't make any sense to me. Regardless of what class I am, how am I not being served? If you are talking about the number of wanky shops then most of us can agree with that. But given the shop units are basically too small to accomodate the types of stores one sees in, dear god, the Glades.. what are people missing out on?

I can buy cheap shoes, cheap haircuts, cheap food, cheap music, cheap books

But it's arrogant to assume working-class people don't want quality either. Those options are also available.

How, exactly, are working-class people deprived in ED compared with anywhere else??

It's a nonsense statement

[Louisa]

Sean, working class people want variety just as everyone else does, but considering this particular thread is about the ridiculous words of a politician, my comments about the lack of variety along LL and the damage this does to the deprived communities who cannot afford to shop in the likes of JoJomamanbebe et al are what particuarly concern me. At least in places like the Walworth Road and Camberwell the shops are more reflective of the local population and go some way to serving the vast majority of the community. Here in ED the reverse is apparant. Someone on a restricted income who cannot or will not travel far has limited resources in ED compared to other parts of Southwark. Why is it when higher income brackets decide its ok to move postcode the shops can move with them and the effect this has on the settled population is not considered. Harman obviously thinks because 20 or 30% of ED is now relatively wealthy, the working classes should be neglected because there are even more poor people down in Walworth and Camberwell. It seems just the most ridiculous thing to say?. Surely this deprives settled populations of something? Why should I have to travel all the way to Bromley just because the likes of White Stuff and other overpriced places want to move in and restrict my shopping choices? I agree LL cannot accomodate big stores, but Peckham equally restricts a huge chunk of the population too.

Huguenot, obviously not you eh?

Louisa.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Why is not being able to shop at JoJomamanbebe depriving anyone? I thought proper working class people passed clothes on - at least they did when i were a lad...

Shops aren't a service of the council. They follow the money. I have lived in poor white working class areas when I had no money. And I lived in well to do areas when I had no money. You'll just have to believe me when I say that lots of people with no money don't like living in run down areas just because the shops cater for the low-incomed. There are people as we speak who are planning to get the hell out of Ilfracombe et al and live on nothing but beans for 5 years so long as it doesn't mean staying another week in a run-down, lifeless, low-expectations deadsville. It's not the paradise you claim it to be (and yes before you say you never claimed it was a paradise, I'm speaking relatively)

Anyway, shouldn't you be getting ready and bringing your purse - you have a drink to buy in about an hours time

[EDOldie]

I think she's leading up to a campaign to get local children educated at her own school and paid for by the taxpayer St. Pauls.

Of course the govt. could annexe Bromley, do everyone a favour, the possibilities are endless.

[Lizziedjango]

I think Louisa is right in this instance. I cannot get most of what I need and want in East Dulwich, and I have to shop in Clapham and Peckham to buy appropriate things ie. clothes (there are no clothes shops in ED I would EVER buy from e.g. ED, the White Stuff, Dr Boo). I need more practical shops like a department store, some high street shops (God forbid) even.

It is not so much that I can't afford shops like JoJomama (whatever it is called), but I would never shop in a place like that, nor any of the nick nack shops in Northcross Rd and LL.

[Louisa]

Or maybe Bromley could annexe the government and do everyone a favour eh?

Sean how many of you will be there this evening?

Louisa.

[SeanMacGabhann]

to be fair Lizzie, Louisa admits those shops you seek couldn't open here - wrong sort of space (building-wise)

And if you see me wearing anything from White Stuff or Dr Boo, try not to judge me too harshly won't you?

[SeanMacGabhann]

I don't know Louisa but if you spend enough on me I'm hoping to see 3 of you

[Louisa]

It will take a bit of persuading to get this working class girl to part with her hard earned cash ;-)

I owe you one anyway because the snow event didnt happen did it?

Louisa.

[SeanMacGabhann]

zactly

[EDOldie]

Her remarks seem to echo the politics of envy and this from probably one of the most middle class cabinet ministers. She's almost as posh as David Cameron. Cor blimey, apples and pears, knees up mother brown etc etc.

God when I was a teenager East Dulwich was proper working class it's changed a bit but what?s wrong with that? Places change and so do people. I think that socialists generally have this over romantic image of the working classes, horny handed sons of toil. The reality is that the Labour party after the war did what the Tesco heiress tried to do in Westminster. They built massive working class estates to cement their vote in London. HH is worried that they are losing support (can't think why!) in traditional Labour voting areas. So is playing the class card. Bearing in mind her background this is the ultimate hypocrisy. Mind you I always admire a politician with the courage of their contradictions.

[Louisa]

EDOldie, I entirely agree about Harman, she angers me so because to me she reflects the greed and neglect of morality that seems to have become the Labour party post Tony Blair. Just as Lord Mandleson's words further infuriated the core vote by suggesting to working people that it was in some way selfish of them to not want local people to be able to compete fairly for jobs, whilst this man seems to have made his fortune from the EU. Total hypocrite in my eyes and is it any wonder so many Labour voters are turning their backs on the party. Harman to me seems very disingenuous with her timing on these comments, and indeed her motive behind the timing also seems a little suspect. Whereas some MP's such as Diana Abbott have fought their corner for what they believe to be right since becoming MP's all those years ago, people like Harman seem hell bent on backing the cabinet at all costs. I find it offensive and an isult to the intelligence of the electorate.

Louisa.

[kristymac1]

I'm confused - when did working class = poor?

[Mick Mac]

Good point Kristymac - these days, its Notworking Class = poor.

"Notworking Class" is a new class created by the current government and the US/UK banking crisis. These people have gone from Middle Class (middle income professionals) to "Notworking Class" by losing their jobs, without stopping at working class along the way. This is hero to zero territory, for those who have lost well paid jobs in the financial sector.

Those who currently retain jobs in the financial or banking sector currently reside temporarily in "Shitting themselves class" from where a flight to Notworking class does not feel very far away.

Niether place is a good place to be. One has no money, the other has money, but no longer feels able to enjoy/spend any of it. Its not a good time for anyone, and to be honest what class you are does not matter an awful lot, and never did.

[Dougal]

Harman is a hypocrite. She wants comprehension for us and private schools for her children. The first thing she did when they came to power was to cut benefits to single mothers. There is nothing socialist about the woman or her party. Diane Abbot attacked Blair for sending his child to The London Oratory shortly before it was time to choose a comprehensive for her son, but she couldn?t find one so had to send her child to a private school. They are all hypocrites and make me to throw up.

[Huguenot]

Lousia I've searched the quote, but can't find the word 'class'. That one's yours I think?

It's a great thing that I didn't 'bate my breath waiting for your recommendations, because you continue to fail the readers of the forum in delivering your list of desirable local stores.

You wade into the East Dulwich commercial menagerie like a drunken six year old in an end of term lego display, flashing your teddy bear like a baseball bat. There'll be nothing to show for it but lonely tears and an empty assembly hall; the kids have moved to the party next door.

Come on, grace us with your vision. In the urban wasteland that is the first achievement of Louisa townplanner, which stores will you welcome with preferential tax rates?

[For the uninitiated observer this challenge may seem unnecessary, but I assure you that Lousia, whilst charming, is the most graceless of contributors. Her creative thinking is limited to a list of her criticisms. If she wasn't borrowing a cup of sugar, she'd be sh*tting on your doorstep.]

[Marmora Man]

For an authoritative position on poverty and the current situation reading the following link is interesting.

CSJ Report

One of the most serious points (page 7 of the report) is that current government policies have moved funds & benefits from the very (severe poverty) poor to those on the border line of the defining income median. Thus by moving a large number of people from just below the 60% of median earnings line to just over it the government can claim to have lifted many "out of poverty". However, this has been achieved at the expense of those so far down the scale as to be impossible to "lift out of poverty" with little, if any, additional cost to government - making the government rhetoric empty and hypocritical.