Burro e Salvia is coming to East Dulwich

[????]

Louisa Wrote:

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> I disagree with that worldwiser. A lot of the

> foods the middle classes worship in areas like

> this have their origins in poor working class

> communities in Italy, Spain et al. The difference

> is, in those countries food is for everyone

> because deeply rooted snobbery doesn't transcend

> into every facet of daily life. Food in particular

> is for all to enjoy. In this class obsessed

> nation, middle England sneers at the food

> traditions of the working class rather than

> celebrate them and consequently there is a huge

> gap between the food traditions and shopping

> habits of each class. Having said this, I think

> those barriers have or are falling away, and even

> the poorest in our society now enjoy a diet

> involving a bit of everything. It's not often

> you'll see one of the foody snobs of ED eating

> jellied eels or pie n mash though. Why can't the

> British food snobs be as open as their Italian

> counterparts? (I'd also like to remind you all

> that M. Manze was an Italian immigrant who opened

> his first pie shops to serve the dockworkers and

> costermongers of London).

>

> Louisa.

Rubbish - Offal. Oysters. Rabbit......all originally working class fare now worshiipped by Middle-class foodies

[Otta]

I don't think that post by Louisa was all rubbish, but I do agree with Quids that there are traditional English meals that are loved by the Middle Classes (whoever they are).

Sunday roast was what immediately sprang to my mind.

And I don't think anyone will ever accuse me of being a food snob, but I wouldn't go near jellied eels for money.

[Louisa]

Perhaps quid but not so much a celebration based on the origins of said examples, more an opportunity to commandeer and adapt to suit their own tastes.

"Oh look rabbit and offal, I think we will buy some because no-one ever eats it anymore and we can make some fancy pretentious dish and sneer at those common folk chewing on a bucket of chicken down at the bus stop"

Or something like that.

I still eat shallow fried Liver and kidney with onion gravy and mash, I bet that's not a dish any foodie would wish to celebrate.

Louisa.

[????]

er, I don't think Sunday Roast is 'working class' in traditions Otta, Roast Meats were for the posh

[edcam]

I don't agree Louisa. For me it's everything in moderation. There are times when I want the finest ingredients, beautifully prepared and lovingly presented (that said, I'm not all that interested in food as "fashion"), then sometimes I just want to go to a greasy spoon.

I think it's fantastic that we now have much more varied and better quality food available in London, which was a bit of food wasteland not so long ago.

It's all about choice and the choice is better than ever.

[Baggs]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Perhaps quid but not so much a celebration based

> on the origins of said examples, more an

> opportunity to commandeer and adapt to suit their

> own tastes.

>

> "Oh look rabbit and offal, I think we will buy

> some because no-one ever eats it anymore and we

> can make some fancy pretentious dish and sneer at

> those common folk chewing on a bucket of chicken

> down at the bus stop"

>

> Or something like that.

>

> I still eat shallow fried Liver and kidney with

> onion gravy and mash, I bet that's not a dish any

> foodie would wish to celebrate.

>

> Louisa.

Recently had a reworking of this dish at Magdalen - it's a dream dish that any "foodie" worth their Maldon would laud.

[Louisa]

???? Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> er, I don't think Sunday Roast is 'working class'

> in traditions Otta, Roast Meats were for the posh

Depends on the cut of meat. Brisket and Mutton alongside rabbit were working class alternatives for Sunday roasts.

Louisa.

[Otta]

My family ALWAYS had a Sunday roast, and the joint would make a further two meals at least.

[DulwichFox]

Times change.

In the 50's Chicken was not mass produced and was expensive and we only ate it at Christmas.

We had to do with Beef on a Sunday.

When we went to the butchers they gave away lamb Shanks for the dog.

Now they cost a fortune. Especially in restaurants.

Oysters cockles & brown shrimps were cheap. Now they too cost an arm and a leg.

DulwichFox

[Otta]

edcam Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't agree Louisa. For me it's everything in

> moderation. There are times when I want the

> finest ingredients, beautifully prepared and

> lovingly presented (that said, I'm not all that

> interested in food as "fashion"), then sometimes I

> just want to go to a greasy spoon.

I'm all for good food which tastes nice. But I can't stand the whole presentation bit.

[Willard]

Louisa Wrote:

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> Why can't the British food snobs be as open as their Italian counterparts?

>

> Louisa.

---------------------------------------------------------------

In my experience Italians are not very open at all when it comes to food. If you take Italian cuisine as a whole there is a wealth of variety there, but within Italy it is very regional, almost to a tribal degree. This is mainly due to the fact that Italy was only unified about 150 years ago, and before that was a number of city states with their own customs and styles. On an even smaller scale one area will swear their method of cooking is superior to another's, and anything else is heresy. I've also met Italians who have visited London and balked at the idea of trying Indian or Thai. They can be very conservative. Also northern Italians can be terrible snobs to their southern neighbours.

I take your point about everyone enjoying a good fry up, but would you prefer one with value sausages or free range? Battery eggs or free range, even if it costs ?1 more? Does that make you a snob too?

Looking forward to B&S opening...

[val]

The steak house in Camberwell was called The Rochester. Also remember Never on a Sunday, it was a good steak and fish restaurant but only for special occasions, as previously said we did not eat out so often in those times.

[jimbo1964]

Mick Mac Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> jimbo1964 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > So, another thread has dissolved into the old

> > class war debate.'Gaurianista, blah blah,

> Chelsea,

> > blah blah, snobs, blah blah'

> zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

> >

> >

> > I miss the old fashioned steak house. I

> remember

> > Never on Sunday but never went. There was one

> in

> > Camberwell we used occasionally the name of

> which

> > escapes me. I guess Gaucho is the nearest to it

> > these days.. without the red velvet opulence of

> > the 1970s.

>

> Really? I'm surprised, as I think Gaucho is close

> to high end and pretty bloody expensive. I cant

> imagine anything similar venturing to ED.

FFS I'm not saying I expect a Gaucho to come to ED, I was just talking about the 'steak house' concept in general. Anyway, a quick look at the Gaucho website shows you can get 3 courses for ?26 which is hardly high end.

[Dodo1]

And in East Dulwich!

[BrandNewGuy]

Penguin68 Wrote:

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> I think Chez Nico was in Queenstown Road

> (Battersea) by 1979 - I hadn't known (WikeP apart)

> he had ever operated in Dulwich - we then lived in

> Prince of Wales Drive just round the corner

Foxy's right. Nico's first restaurant was where Mr Liu is now. Talk about a brave location back then...

[Mick Mac]

Otta Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> edcam Wrote:

>

>

> I'm all for good food which tastes nice. But I

> can't stand the whole presentation bit.

Presentation is very important for me - but not to the point that it becomes art or detracts from the food or includes novelty items - I want my food on a plate.

[Jah Lush]

I never went to Never On A Sunday. Looked a bit shit to me even then.

I love Italian food and pasta is a main part of my diet so I'm hoping that Burro e Salvia will be a good place to go for essentials.

[Louisa]

Never on a Sunday and Le Moulin had quite a lot in common. A sort of 70s version of something slightly exotic and different (even if it tended to be basic grub like steak and chips or grilled fish and boiled veg). That type of restaurant doesn't seem popular in London now the zeitgeist has moved onto grander more worldly cuisine and left some of us behind still craving a good honest meat and two veg meal locally once in a while. The everything with chips concept you get at a Wetherspoons type pub doesn't cut the mustard for me neither.

Louisa.

[Peckhamrye]

Le Chardon (yes, I know) does good steak and chips and fish offerings.

[spark67]

your'e a fine one to lecture people on "sneering" & looking down at what other people eat Louisa...no one here has sneered at anyone for eating fried chicken ..the only one bringing class into this and sneering is you.

Is someone wants to spend their hard earned cash in a more expensive restaurant ..thats fine...If someone wants to enjoy a kebab on a friday night or a bucket of chicken, fine ( I can do either no problem )...doesn't make either of those people a horrible person, As you seem to be saying about people who might go into the the new italian might be according to you

[Louisa]

Oh for goodness sakes spark67 at what point did I say people choosing to shop at this new establishment are horrible people? Taking my posts out of context again and more importantly swinging this thread wildly off topic. Can we stick to keeping this thread on topic please?

Louisa.

[monica]

Willard Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Louisa Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > Why can't the British food snobs be as open as

> their Italian counterparts?

> >

> > Louisa.

> --------------------------------------------------

> -------------

>

> In my experience Italians are not very open at all

> when it comes to food. If you take Italian cuisine

> as a whole there is a wealth of variety there, but

> within Italy it is very regional, almost to a

> tribal degree. This is mainly due to the fact that

> Italy was only unified about 150 years ago, and

> before that was a number of city states with their

> own customs and styles. On an even smaller scale

> one area will swear their method of cooking is

> superior to another's, and anything else is

> heresy. I've also met Italians who have visited

> London and balked at the idea of trying Indian or

> Thai. They can be very conservative. Also northern

> Italians can be terrible snobs to their southern

> neighbours.

>

> I take your point about everyone enjoying a good

> fry up, but would you prefer one with value

> sausages or free range? Battery eggs or free

> range, even if it costs ?1 more? Does that make

> you a snob too?

>

> Looking forward to B&S opening...

Willard I disagree with you. I suggest you speak to someone who has lived in both the south and North of Italy, oh that would be me. You are being stereo typical about the Italians. Italians are very open with their food, they share their passion for food with everyone who wants to learn about Italian cuisine. We have regional dishes, in Venice we have risotto, In Brindisi, game. We share and we love.

Lets get back on topic now folkes, this thread as gone way off topic.

Grazie

[spark67]

you started going off topic by brining class into it with your usual "Gaurdianista" "Middle class leftie" "food snob" Rubbish...which you have associate with this establishment with before it's even opened in your usual sweeping generalisation way again.

Don't worry I'll leave you to it now as I get on with my apparently food snobby middle class life it appears, seeing I have been to one or two of the places you seem to despise. *goes off to order a curry*

[Louisa]

Enjoy your curry. If you need any advice on pretentious middle England eateries in the vicinity then check my back catalogue on the forum, I'm sure I've discovered a posh curry house at some point.

Louisa.

[spark67]

cheers will do....only if they deliver in gilded carriages, as I have let my peasants off for the week, so nobody around to carry my sedan