Consultation on ?improving? the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale

[Zebedee Tring]

No recent comment yet on difficulties for coaches turning left into EDG. Is this still a problem or isn't it?

[Tessmo]

@Zebedee Tring Yes, there are difficulties for coaches - and even cars - turning left into EDG. I have observed several vehicles running over the ASL (Advanced Stop Line), where cyclists are waiting, as the vehicles turn from Townley into East Dulwich Grove.

This was brought up as a question to Southwark Council officer Matt Hill at the Dulwich Community Council on Wednesday night. He confirmed that it would be looked into if it was a problem.

At the moment - although this might be sorted out once the lights are properly linked to other junctions and the right-turn filter is working properly - there is also a clash between, on the one hand, vehicles and cycles turning right from East Dulwich Grove into Townley Road (they are stranded in the middle of the junction as their lights go red), and, on the other hand, vehicles turning left, or right, or going straight on, as the lights go green in Townley Road. I saw a right-turning car on East Dulwich Grove that had stopped in the middle of the junction preventing a left-turning coach (which was blocking the coach behind it) from Townley Road from completing the turn. The car, realising it was blocking traffic, then reversed up, right over the pedestrian crossing which was showing a green man. Fortunately, no children were crossing at the time.

[Zebedee Tring]

Thanks, Tessmo. A number of people have warned Matt Hill and others at Southwark, by email and on this thread, that there would be left hand turn problems if the scheme was built as proposed, but we were ignored. So how are Southwark going to resolve this problem? By removing the build out that they have just constructed and thereby waste even more scarce funds?

[Abe_froeman]

They could always put a barrier across the road to resolve the left turn problems.

[Tessmo]

@Abe_froeman Please, please tell me you're joking...

[rch]

Smiley Face!! :-)

[Tessmo]

Thanks @rch. This has been going on so long, I've lost my sense of humour...

[slarti b]

I have been on holiday for last 3 weeks and I have only just had a chance to see the results of the "improvements".

Yesterday at about 8:30 AM, the queue along Townley Road stretched back almost to Dovercourt, far longer than it used to (presumably due to reduced junction capacity) obviously leading to increased pollution.

This morning I spent some time cycling across the junction and observed major issues:

A big problem (as predicted and warned against) is the left-hand turn from Townley into EDG. Coaches, and even large vans, were swinging right out to get round this corner. This led to them overrunning the advanced stop line in EDG heading north-east (luckily no cyclist in it at the time). Also, to make the turn they were slowing right down and as a result on a couple of occasions cars following them were left stranded by the red lights blocking the cycle advanced stop line on Townley. Even turning left on my bike felt very tight and, because I had to take the corner wide, I felt much more exposed to vehicles following me round.

Vehicles, particularly coaches, turning right from EDG into Townley Road were another big issue. Frequently they got stuck in the middle of the junction when the EDG lights had turned red and finished their turn when other lights had turned green leading to possible conflicts. I also saw coaches stranded across the EDG pedestrian walkway when the light turned red causing the lollipop man to complain.

I tried several times cycling across EDG from Greendale to Townley Road. At the moment the cyclist advanced start signals are not active (how on EARTH did Southwark planners not foresee that?) and I believe the danger from right hooking is WORSE than before. Eg.

- cars turning right from Townley into EDG appeared to be starting closer to the turn giving cyclists less time to get over the junction

- the removal of the traffic island in Townley meant cars were cutting the corner turning right into EDG

- cars from Townley which had been stuck behind vehicles making the slow left turn into EDG speeded up when their right turn became clear, increasing the risk of them colliding with southbound Greendale cyclists

- subject to checking, I believe there are no markings or guidelines to remind cars turning right from Townley into EDG that they are making a right turn across what is expected to be a high volume cycle way.

I realise that, due to the incompetence of the Southwark planners and despite assurances, the work has not yet been completed. However even when it has, many of the issues above will not be improved. Most of these issues were anticipated by local residents but their warnings to the council were ignored.

I believe we urgently need a review of the safety of this "improved" junction by a reputable, independent traffic consultancy who can give an objective opinion. This will of course rule out AECOM and their sister organisation, Conway.

[edhistory]

The new lamp post on the corner is still standing.

[spider69]

Perhaps if people had used common sense as my generation would have done and used the road layout that was there this cock up would not have happened.

The old system worked for us unfortunately this is not the case now.

Common sense has gone out of the window.

[@Woodwarde]

Slarti b. I have noticed similar and have photos that I will try to post up that show the exact conflicts that you describe.

If there are photos or other observations posted here, then I am minded to collate them for our Councillors to pursue with Southwark.

The file size limit on attachments may make this a challenge. Any advice on getting around that?

[Zebedee Tring]

Slarti b,@Woodwarde and others, on this thread and by email, have warned Southwark officers and senior Councillors about these potential problems but everything that they have said has been rejected or ignored. Who will be held accountable for this totally foreseeable fiasco?

[@Woodwarde]

Some photos to show the difficulty of coach turning/car movement conflict and the tailback.

It would be helpful for any photos showing conflict to be PMd to me, as I will keep a record.

Also to email them to the councillors perhaps.

[Tessmo]

General plea to anyone who might be able to go down to the junction for half an hour 8am to 8.30am, or 3pm to 3.30pm, to take pictures of near misses between coaches, cars, cyclists and pedestrians. Add date and time, and where you were standing. Important for Southwark to see what's going on before there's a serious accident.

[@Woodwarde]

Tessmo Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> General plea to anyone who might be able to go

> down to the junction for half an hour 8am to

> 8.30am, or 3pm to 3.30pm, to take pictures of near

> misses between coaches, cars, cyclists and

> pedestrians. Add date and time, and where you were

> standing. Important for Southwark to see what's

> going on before there's a serious accident.

Agree and I would also mention 4pm when I understand that 7 coaches in a row make the turn left from Townley onto ED Grove.

[intexasatthe moment]

I've come across something called a swpet path anyalsis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swept_path_analysis when looking at planning applications .

I guess one must have been done for this work - is there a report available ?

Sorry if this has already been discussed ,or is made irrelevant by changes to original plans .I've not kept entirely up to date with this thread .

[Alexyxx]

Re schoolchildren on foot finding the junction better now, the old system of cattle pens was misguided and awful, but could have been fixed by simply removing the rails.

The new diagonal crossing does seem to be popular, though it was not necessary to do all the rest of the remodelling to bring it in. Even before the remodelling, some groups were anyway being taken across more or less diagonally by one of the lollipop team during the all-red phase.

But in any case the final proof will not be until the rest of the pavement works are finished and all pedestrian routes available.

[Zebedee Tring]

This costly fiasco of a scheme was not supposed to be for the benefit of schoolchildren from two private schools (and it would be surprising if a Labour Council had these primarily in mind anyway). It was supposed to benefit cyclists (the funding purportedly coming from a cycling budget) as well as motorists and pedestrians in general.

[christgill]

I've got a couple of files that I downloaded from Southwark at some time in the past 6 months or so. They're called ATRACK_Layout1 and ATRACK_Layout2 (pdf) but they're each a couple of kb over the download limit. I've attached a section of a screenshot.

They show the swept area for coaches turning from/to Townley/EDG.

I'm afraid I can't remember exactly how I came by them, but it would have been from a link posted on this thread. I think they relate to the final layout (it looks like it) but I can't guarantee it.

[intexasatthe moment]

that's interesting christgill - I wonder if there's someone around who's good at reading such things . I imagine that the downloads could be emailed if too large to attach here ?

[James Barber]

Officers have confirmed at meetings and in writing that all the turning movements have had swept path analysis.

The junction from memory - Robin do you recall - had a safety audit some time ago and was declared unsafe for pedestrians. So when the School Crossing Patrols were proposed to be removed that safety audit was part of the justification for not removing them. The focus on that was probably a contributor to the remodelling taking place.

Is it now safe enough to remove the SCP's? I hope it is but hope they remain. Hope that makes sense.

As for using cycle budgets. It is often the case that only marginal at best cycle improvement results from cycle budgets and not the step change we need to make. When you next hear a large amount of money for making cycling safer remember this example.

[Zebedee Tring]

If a ?250K expenditure of cycling money results in only a marginal improvement for cyclists, then to my mind this represents a massive misuse of public money when local government is more strapped for cash than at any time in living memory. Though we shouldn't be surprised when this comes from a budget that is the responsibility of the same Mayor of London who is throwing shedloads of dosh at his useless new Routemaster bus and the ludicrous Garden Bridge.

[wulfhound]

If a ?250K expenditure of cycling money results in only a marginal improvement for cyclists, then to my mind this represents a massive misuse of public money when local government is more strapped for cash than at any time in living memory.

The problem is, most contributors on this thread don't want to radically improve things for cyclists.

At least, not if it means compromising universal, unfettered and easy door-to-door car access and rat runs galore. Shutting those down is the only way it's going to happen.

"Some of my best friends are cyclists". I hear that a lot. "We'd love to see more kids out on bikes". Right - but are you actually prepared to sacrifice anything to make it happen?

So I'm afraid a lot of the people on this thread need to take a look in the mirror, and think about what their priorities really are. TfL want to spend somewhere in the region of ?3 MILLION on the Quietway.. the question is, do people want to spend it on useless build-outs and fancy paving, or on an actual, real step-change for cycling in the area?

The latter is absolutely possible - but the only way it's going to happen is if people are prepared to make some car journeys longer and slower.

The money was there, the political will to do something was there, but the Right-To-Turn-Right mob torpedoed any chance of a good outcome. Result? A watered-down scheme that p***ed a small fortune up the wall. You really think the council and their contractors weren't going to find a way to spend the money just because people didn't like their first design?

I cycle everywhere & every day, but I'd much, much rather the QW didn't happen at all than that they spend ?3M on fancy paving because the public aren't prepared to countenance the cheap, proven interventions (road closures) that actually work. But as the money's already allocated, ?3M worth of fancy paving is most of what you're likely to get.

[bawdy-nan]

Wulfhound - I agree with you and would like to see better, safer provision for cycling and pedestrains and happily eschew my car for local journeys wherever possible but this instance is an example of change being made without looking at the overall picture. I reckon (not sure, of course) that banning a right turn would have had a detrimental impact on other junctions locally, not least the ghastly morning mess in Dulwich Village (where, incidentally there was a traffic observation this morning). Are you hopeful about the broader quietway planning? I mean, do you think that looking at the bigger picture might help?

[nunhead_man]

wulfhound Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> So I'm afraid a lot of the people on this thread

> need to take a look in the mirror, and think about

> what their priorities really are. TfL want to

> spend somewhere in the region of ?3 MILLION on the

> Quietway.. the question is, do people want to

> spend it on useless build-outs and fancy paving,

> or on an actual, real step-change for cycling in

> the area?

Agreed - and those who drive using petrol and diesel should choke on this ............

http://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/Health_Impact_of_Cars_in_London-Sept_2015_Final.pdf