Consultation on ?improving? the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale

[urbanfox]

Absolutely right - have been using this route for the past 4 years and it's never been so bad, at 8am tailback to the hospital with no reason ie no roadworks.

[James Barber]

I believe the phasing has been changed. It feels much safer to cross.

Happy to ask for details of the change if people interested.

[howdood]

Hi James - please do ask for more details, especially about how the impact of the change is being monitored and assessed. I can't see any major improvement in the safety of the children crossing to get to the local schools, but I can definitely report that it's made East Dulwich Grove feel like an absolute deathtrap for cyclists (and presumably pedestrians as well).

[Tessmo]

Bewildered. Why would the phasing change now before the works on the junction begin? To test the water? If so, will the new junction mean permanent queues on EDG? What will this mean for the 37 bus in the mornings?

[BrandNewGuy]

Howdood - "The current timings are really dangerous - the crossing time for pedestrians is too short"

Cllr. Barber - "I believe the phasing has been changed. It feels much safer to cross."

Well, those can't both be right so, yes, we need a proper breakdown of what's happened to the phasing on the lights.

And, as I've suggested before, when the new physical arrangements at the lights come in, the traffic comparison test needs to be made with the situation before these lights were tinkered with, not with the situation now.

[rch]

I had a look as I walked by yesterday at school let-out time. It looks like the lights have been adjusted to allow for all four arms of the junction to have pedestrians cross simultaneously at once, but the corners are too far apart for a pedestrian to be able to do two arms in one go so they still have to do it in two phases (which was causing them to cross diagonally to compensate).

The Lollipop Man said that all the advance car timings had been stopped, presumably to allow for the simultaneous ped crossings to occur, which is probably what's causing the car tailbacks.

There was an AECOM engineer there taking readings to calculate the future junction timings, but he said that he hadn't been told about the recent light timing changes, so he wasn't able to figure out what effect they had on the timings.

There was also a woman there taking notes of all the cars tailing back, but I don't know if she was a resident or a council officer.

Everyone seemed to agree that it was a mess, but no one seemed to know who ordered the works or what exactly had changed...

[first mate]

James Barber sounds as though he may know a but more about the timing changes, the decision maker and rationale for the changes. Perhaps he could elaborate?

[jonl5]

I think we need an answer from James. Glengarry and Hillsborough are now being used as rat runs to avoid the huge queues.

[fazer71]

Who's surprised it wasn't broken but now it is.

C?%k up as always by tfl and Southwark.

Carve up by the usual contractors.

W&%kers the lot of them.

[howdood]

Hi - James Barber, it's a couple of weeks since you very kindly offered to investigate this; please could you let us know what you've found out? Traffic this morning on EDG was - if anything - worse, with a lot of HGVs, scaffolding lorries, long-wheelbase vans (as well as the usual coaches and buses) stationary up to the junction all the way back past the hospital and down towards LL.

Thanks!

[James Barber]

Hi howdood,

I posted what I'd found out a few weeks ago http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,336529,page=142

18 May 11:11 response I posted.

[BrandNewGuy]

But the response you got was clearly insufficient because it claimed that the traffic phases(s) hadn't been shortened, just rearranged. We need to clarify if that is the case, because frankly I don't believe it.

[howdood]

Hi James, many thanks for that. My best guess is that they have inadvertently switched the *timings* at the same time as the order of sequence (maybe transferred the EDG timing to Greendale and vice versa?) - at a rough count this morning, the Greendale lights are now green for somewhere between 15-20 seconds: much longer than they used to be and certainly longer than the EDG part of the sequence. The lengths of different parts of the sequence have definitely changed, and if TFL think they haven't then it's just a straightforward error on their part. As previous posters (here and on the other thread) have suggested, this is one it might be well worth pushing back on if you have a contact with the traffic people.

Thanks!

[Beaky]

The lights on Townley Road are a disaster waiting to happen at the moment. Whilst one side goes green the children cross into the middle then the other side goes green but you can't cross as you have cars and coaches turning from East Dulwich Grove into Townley Road. I cross with my children thankfully but there are numerous other children who are 10/11 walking to school on their own who don't know when its safe as cars are travelling through the lights when its supposed to be safe for the children to cross.

They need re setting back to how they used to be.

[James Barber]

Hi BNG,

The changes have been a big improvement for me walking through the junction. No longer are we getting right turing cars jumping the red lights coming out of Townley road. But I suspect that illegal manuevre being removed has reduced the junction capacity a little.

This morning two people were undertaking a traffic count.

Hi howdood,

Let me get a copy of the signal timings, share them and someone can double check from this thread.

Hi Beaky,

I'm pretty sure some of tyhe kids walking to school on their own are younger than 0/11 yo.

[BrandNewGuy]

James Barber Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hi BNG,

> The changes have been a big improvement for me

> walking through the junction. No longer are we

> getting right turing cars jumping the red lights

> coming out of Townley road. But I suspect that

> illegal manuevre being removed has reduced the

> junction capacity a little.

Yes, you mentioned this before without any evidence. Even if it were true, a car or at most two per phase not getting through cannot possibly account for huge queues on EDG. You seem not to accept that the signal timings have clearly changed.

[Tessmo]

Southwark is conducting a survey into how consultations should be run in future. Here's the link

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1irv0eVt_jvWO7XbHjmjGd3Rse_bPA8JFf4fMgPgrhJ0/viewform

Anyone who feels the whole Townley Road consultation could have been handled better might want to respond...

The person who sent me this said that there was (as usual) a tight deadline, so please reply as soon as possible.

[howdood]

Traffic on EDG nearly back to normal levels this morning - hopefully they've corrected whatever mistake it was they made!

[Scootingover]

Thank you Tessmo for flagging this - not sure who has been invited to comment. I might comment on that in my feedback! Some got below but many on this thread will have a view and should make time to reply. Very tight deadline in order to gather important feedback :-)

From: Sangweme, Dennis [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Planning.Applications

Sent: 29 May 2015 10:11

To: Sangweme, Dennis

Subject: RE: Have your say on the future of planning consultations - 21st Century Public Notices Survey

Dear Resident/Customer,

The Southwark Planning Division is conducting a survey to better understand your needs and preferences on statutory consultations on planning applications.

Statutory notices are an important means for ensuring that the public is kept informed on decisions by their council which may affect your quality of life, local amenity or your property. We are particularly interested in your views on public consultation around planning applications (letters to residents, website planning register, site notices on lamp posts and press notices in Southwark News). The survey should take ten minutes to complete, and all responses are anonymous. Please feel free to pass on to others interested in participating.

Take part in the survey here

The current consultation process on planning applications originates from an age where the printed word was our key source of information. Today, how we consume information has drastically changed with advances in technology. Statutory notices need to change too.

The government, therefore, invited Councils, newspapers and others to pilot innovative ways of improving statutory notices. Southwark has been selected as one of the pilot areas. The pilots will explore how statutory notices can be changed in future so that they reach more people, are easier to read, give greater visibility and transparency to big issues and reduce costs in a sustainable way. Southwark Council and Southwark News/Weekender are jointly implementing the pilot in Southwark.

We want to hear from you on these matters; about your preferences on consuming information on planning notices, the problems you face in accessing planning information in general and how you would like to consume information on planning in future.

We would like to hear from all local residents, businesses, applicants and developers so that the findings provide a complete picture of the situation in Southwark, and we would be very grateful if you could take part.

Take part in the survey here

The research is jointly sponsored by the Department of Communities and Local Government (DCLG) and will be open for two weeks. We do hope that you will be able to take part.

Kind regards,

Simon Bevan | Director of Planning

Planning Division | Chief Executive's Department

The London Borough of Southwark | PO Box 64529 | London SE1P 2QH

Sign up at: www.southwark.gov.uk/planningregister to receive information on planning applications in your area

cid:[email protected]/mysouthwark

For council services at your fingertips, register online

[@Woodwarde]

Is there any update on Townley? I see that there is a Dulwich Community Council meeting this coming Weds evening, 7pm at Christ Church, Barry Road. Details here, Townley may get a mention.

http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=176&MId=5156&Ver=4

There is a deputation at this DCC from Melbourne Grove residents to propose making part of Melbourne semi-permeable and prevent it being used as a rat run. There seems to be a very significant volume of cars using it - some 15,000 per week. This is somewhat ironic, because Southwark eventually agreed that Melbourne would be used as an alternative if the No RHT on Townley went ahead and they 'forgot' to measure the existing traffic there already.

[holymoly]

Melbourne Grove residents (South section) are very concerned as they see that part of the road used as a rat run. Vehicles are either avoiding Lordship Lane or using M Grove as a cut through to Lordship Lane. Residents are investigating traffic calming measures (full width speed bumps) or possibly a barrier (like Friern Road) between Tell Grove and Ashbourne Grove. Southwark has found that the majority of the vehicles are speeding and police data measured just under 15000 vehicles a week with a 85th percentile speed of 25mph.

As has been said from the outset, changes to Townley will need to consider the whole area.

[@Woodwarde]

Southwark News states that the junction will be affected by works from 4th July to 1st September. Tin hats on.

[Bicknell]

Has anyone seen any of those notices tied to lampposts? Have I missed them? I thought that had to happen before work began.

[@Woodwarde]

I was wondering that too. The extract below is from an email exchange with the Southwark Planning officer during the first round of consultation but it explains the Statutory element. I can't spot anything on the Southwark website that relates to the formal statutory consultation for Townley which I had understood (from below) to be required.

_____________________________

Public consultation is generally for three weeks (21 days) although this is flexible and at our discretion. In August and December in particular we aim to give longer.

Following completion of the consultation, the results are aggregated and then reported to ward members, followed by a formal report for consultation (in the case of strategic schemes) or for determination (for non-strategic schemes) to the relevant Community Council. For strategic schemes, determination sits with the Cabinet Member. The consultation report follows a standard template with some variation as necessary. This will report results from the ?public? consultation as well as any feedback from ?stakeholders? along with officer responses to particular issues raised.

The entire public consultation is in addition to a ** formal statutory consultation ** that we must undertake where Traffic Management Orders or notices are required by law. We usually run these sequentially although in some cases, due to programme pressures, we can and do run a statutory and public consultation simultaneously. Therefore in the specific case of Townley Road/East Dulwich Grove, there is a further, separate statutory consultation phase to come.

By way of background, the Council has a duty to consult prior to making Traffic Management Orders. This is as specified in regulations 6 and 7 of the Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/6/made

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1996/2489/regulation/7/made

and the most relevant excerpt is as follows:

Publication of proposals

7. (1) An order making authority shall, before making an order,?

(a)publish at least once a notice (in these Regulations called a ?notice of proposals?) containing the particulars specified in Parts I and II of Schedule 1 in a newspaper circulating in the area in which any road or other place to which the order relates is situated;

(b)in the case of an order under section 6 of the 1984 Act, publish a similar notice in the London Gazette;

©take such other steps as it may consider appropriate for ensuring that adequate publicity about the order is given to persons likely to be affected by its provisions and, without prejudice to the generality of this sub-paragraph, such other steps may include?

(i)in the case of an order to which sub-paragraph (b) does not apply, publication of a notice in the London Gazette;

(ii)the display of notices in roads or other places affected by the order; or

(iii)the delivery of notices or letters to premises, or premises occupied by persons, appearing to the authority to be likely to be affected by any provision in the order.

All of the above will be undertaken as part of the formal statutory consultation that will follow in due course.

[fazer71]

C%&k up central.

I'm using Melbourne Grove 100% of the time now to avoid this nonsense.