Consultation on ?improving? the junction of East Dulwich Grove, Townley Road and Green Dale

[sanity girl]

Thanks BrandNewGuy for sharing this - I too oppose the proposed no right turn into EDG from Townley and I have completed the online consultation

[Zebedee Tring]

tomdhu, like you I think that the proposals are a complete dog's dinner, especially the proposed banning of right turning traffic from Townley Road into ED Grove. However, unless I've misunderstood what you're saying, it seems from the plan of the proposed "improvements" that traffic coming from the Red Post Hill junction along ED Grove WILL be able to travel straight across the Townley junction towards LL without being impeded by traffic turning right into Townley Road, since there are two traffic lanes shown at the junction. In other words, as far as I am aware there will be no change from the current situation, at least in this respect.

[tomdhu]

Zebedee Tring Wrote:

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> tomdhu, like you I think that the proposals are a

> complete dog's dinner, especially the proposed

> banning of right turning traffic from Townley Road

> into ED Grove. However, unless I've misunderstood

> what you're saying, it seems from the plan of the

> proposed "improvements" that traffic coming from

> the Red Post Hill junction along ED Grove WILL be

> able to travel straight across the Townley

> junction towards LL without being impeded by

> traffic turning right into Townley Road, since

> there are two traffic lanes shown at the junction.

> In other words, as far as I am aware there will be

> no change from the current situation, at least in

> this respect.

The two traffic lanes will come down to one only because they are planning a dedicated cycling lane. This, plus the build-outs, means there's only room for one lane. Hence eastbound traffic on EDG will be impeded by vehicles turning right.

The implications are enormous as the tailbacks in both directions will be horrendous. They are bad enough between 8:00-9:30 and again from 3:15-17:30. Just imagine!

Tom

[Villager]

>

> The two traffic lanes will come down to one only

> because they are planning a dedicated cycling

> lane. This, plus the build-outs, means there's

> only room for one lane. Hence eastbound traffic on

> EDG will be impeded by vehicles turning right.

> The implications are enormous as the tailbacks in

> both directions will be horrendous. They are bad

> enough between 8:00-9:30 and again from

> 3:15-17:30. Just imagine!

>

> Tom

As a daily user of the 37 bus this will be HORRENDOUS! Also the school buses will be affected and kids will be late for school and later getting home.

Sadly, my research shows that this proposal is a result of a small but very effective cyclists lobby group who have regular meeting with the Council. The Council have been unduly influenced by them and it is to the detriment of all the other users.

It's about time the silent majority made their views felt.

[kiera]

I can well understand cyclists finding it difficult to cross from Green Dale because of traffic turning right from Townley Rd, but surely this could easily be resolved by rephasing the traffic lights. I don't know why the council can't make simple adjustments without spending a fortune on a total and unnecessary redesign.

[tiddles]

agree with Kiera

[Penguin68]

I don't know why the council can't make simple adjustments without spending a fortune on a total and unnecessary redesign.

Possibly because they are rather more anti-car than (even) pro-cyclist. Most of the improvements (cf Northcross Road:LL) seem more about making life more difficult for motorists than achieving any positive direct end for the constituency purporting to be the beneficiary. Those who are politically either supporting (or directing) the council apparatchiks should note that motorists themselves form not just another constituency, but constituents.

[Charles Notice]

Wrong thread

[Villager]

tiddles Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> I pity Gilkes crescent

And Gt. Spillmans

And all Calton Ave,

And all Dulwich Village,

Plus all No 37 bus users and other drivers on East Dulwich Grove.

[DaveR]

I'm all in favour of changes to make cycling safer, and even in favour of stuff that is mildly anti-car (even though I have a car, I recognise that in residential streets, the less traffic the better), but even then I don't think the new 'no right turn' from Townley into EDG makes any sense. And it needs to be clarified whether eastbound traffic on EDG will in practice be reduced to one lane at the junction, which needs to be avoided at all costs.

[sandyman]

I presume there is an obvious reason why not, but why can't there simply be a right-hand turn green light filter at townley rd as there is further down to turn right towards North Dulwich station?

[James Barber]

Hi tomdhu, ZDT,

I think you were talknig at cross purposes. East bound slong East Dulwich Grove the current two lanes remain two lanes on the western side of the junctin as now. The westbound two lanes are reduced to two. But very few vehicles use the right hand lane to turn right into Greendale so I'm sure it is some capacity reduction it must ber marginal. Saying that sometimes long tail back along EDG currently.

The big issue for me is the Townley Road banned right turn for what appears a duplicate reason for the southbound cyclsits to get a head start on the main green light phase. Both aren't needed.

I've asked for this scheme to be reviewed by the Dulwich Community Council to ensure a publci meeting people can express views. Although an East Dulwich ward councillor and this scheme is Village ward it would as planned displace vehicles into East Dulwich ward.

[Zebedee Tring]

Sandyman, unfortunately this wouldn't work because under the proposals there would be only one lane for cars coming from Townley Road into ED Grove, while there are two lanes for cars coming from ED Grove to the Redpost Hill junction, where a green filter right hand turn is feasible.

Any officer report on the proposals should spell out where they think that the traffic that won't be able to turn right any more will go and the effect that this would have on roads in the area. This alone could be enough to kill this aspect of the proposals stone dead.

[Jennys]

The problem of making the junction "no right turn from Townley Road into East Dulwich Grove may increase once a new school is built on the old Dulwich Hospital site, given that some parents would drive their children to school.

[nunhead_man]

Drive children to school?

What about the safety of those children who walk and cycle?

[BrandNewGuy]

The junction is currently perfectly safe for those who walk. And for those who cycle, the one issue of any substance might be crossing from Green Dale and meeting traffic wanting to turn right from Townley Road. And that's it. So let's not exaggerate the 'problems' at a busy junction that has had three 'slight' incidents since 2005.

[sandyman]

Zebedee Tring Wrote:

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> Sandyman, unfortunately this wouldn't work because

> under the proposals there would be only one lane

> for cars coming from Townley Road into ED Grove,

> while there are two lanes for cars coming from ED

> Grove to the Redpost Hill junction, where a green

> filter right hand turn is feasible.

>

Oh I see. In that case surely they can come up with a simpler, and cheaper, plan that keeps Townley as two lanes?

[BrandNewGuy]

Yes, by removing the proposed bicycle 'holding area' for nervous cyclists.

[Robert Poste's Child]

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The junction is currently perfectly safe for those

> who walk. And for those who cycle, the one issue

> of any substance might be crossing from Green Dale

> and meeting traffic wanting to turn right from

> Townley Road. And that's it. So let's not

> exaggerate the 'problems' at a busy junction that

> has had three 'slight' incidents since 2005.

As I said earlier (just repeating this for protection!), I agree that banning the right turn out of Townley Rd is impractical and should be dropped.

However, in my experience it's not true that cyclists only have a problem going straight across or right from Greendale. For example, if you turn right out of Townley Rd on a bike (having either woven your way around the waiting traffic that has blocked the cycle lane or taken your chance stopping in the middle of traffic with impatient drivers in front, beside and behind you) you tend to get crowded or pushed out to the left, which causes problems with traffic coming out of Greendale. Drivers waiting to turn left don't always seem to notice cyclists in the current cycle lane who may be going straight on. Many drivers also sit in the cycle box at junctions.

Let's be honest, turning right at any crossroads feels risky to a cyclist as you're very exposed, even at a less busy and aggressive junction than this one. In addition, drivers going either towards ED accelerate downhill, and if I go that way I don't feel safe until past the Melbourne Grove turn-off. I've often felt the hospital was well placed!

That said, as you said previously, I think this could be improved to the satisfaction of all users by phasing the lights differently.

More generally, I do think it would make practical sense to change the law so cyclists can proceed (with caution) at the same time as pedestrians, which currently would count as jumping a red light. This would vastly improve the next junction with Dulwich Village, for example, and the nightmare at Herne Hill. In Germany, where cyclists share pedestrianised areas there are big signs saying 'walking pace', which works well.

[James Barber]

Hi BNG,

I beg to differ. The current junction isn't that safe. Hence the need for two School Crossing Patrols.

I think the Townley right turn should be kept BUT from my experiences that movement appears the most likely to have red light jumpers. I suspect that's part of the reasoning to ban it. A simpler method would be a red light digitial camera added to the proposals to deter this behaviour.

Hi tomdhu,

If I recall correctly you are particularly concerned by no.37 buses westbound along EDG and reduction from two lanes to one lane on the eastern side of the junction for westbound vehicles. Again during rushhour this morning vertually no one except me use the right turn lane into Greendale. It's used so little that I can't see removing it making a material difference.

[BrandNewGuy]

James, with respect, when the safety figures are in your favour, you quote them, when they're not you ignore them. You can't have it both ways.

And drivers jumping red lights is not relevant to whether or not those lights are desirable.

[BrandNewGuy]

Robert Poste's Child Wrote:

> However, in my experience it's not true that

> cyclists only have a problem going straight across

> or right from Greendale. For example, if you turn

> right out of Townley Rd on a bike (having either

> woven your way around the waiting traffic that has

> blocked the cycle lane or taken your chance

> stopping in the middle of traffic with impatient

> drivers in front, beside and behind you) you tend

> to get crowded or pushed out to the left, which

> causes problems with traffic coming out of

> Greendale. Drivers waiting to turn left don't

> always seem to notice cyclists in the current

> cycle lane who may be going straight on. Many

> drivers also sit in the cycle box at junctions.

That's pretty much an argument for banning all right turns, isn't it?

[James Barber]

Hi BNG,

Don't think so. I pointed people to the ww.crashmap.co.uk website so they could look themself at crashes and draw their own conclusion.

This particular junction doesn't have a high crash rate despite the very large volumes and children and vehicles using it. But the council have proposed some big changes to make it much easier to use and hoepfully safer - both for people walking and cycling. Removing the cattle pens is a good step forward.

I would suggest that the safety is really helped by having both School Crossing Patrols. I am concerned that they'll be dropped by Village ward councillors with any new junction design being completed on the ground.

[Jennys]

Nunhead man, you misunderstand me. I am certainly not saying its good to drive children to school. But many parents do and will continue to drive them, even though it would be much better for the children's health and for the environment if they walked or cycled.

[Robert Poste's Child]

BrandNewGuy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Robert Poste's Child Wrote:

>

> > However, in my experience it's not true that

> > cyclists only have a problem going straight

> across

> > or right from Greendale. For example, if you

> turn

> > right out of Townley Rd on a bike (having

> either

> > woven your way around the waiting traffic that

> has

> > blocked the cycle lane or taken your chance

> > stopping in the middle of traffic with

> impatient

> > drivers in front, beside and behind you) you

> tend

> > to get crowded or pushed out to the left, which

> > causes problems with traffic coming out of

> > Greendale. Drivers waiting to turn left don't

> > always seem to notice cyclists in the current

> > cycle lane who may be going straight on. Many

> > drivers also sit in the cycle box at junctions.

>

> That's pretty much an argument for banning all

> right turns, isn;t it?

BNG, if you read my post again, and the previous one, I'm AGAINST banning the right turn. My intention was to share my own experience as in my view there's more danger to cyclists than you say. I suggested two alternative ways to help reach a solution that might work for everyone.