On the Ball (new Football Focus)

[Sandperson]

Atila Reincarnate Wrote:

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> In the premiership, there are only 3 clubs I can

> think of that have had any real continuity in the

> shape of the same manager over a period of years

> and they are Everton (Moyes), Man U (Fergie), and

> Arsenal (Wenger) all of these clubs have stability

> as a result and varying degrees of success. I

> think these 2 factors are inextricably linked.

> Chelsea believe that money buys success, for two

> successive seasons it worked for them. Man U and

> Arsenals success in the prem and elsewhere wasn't

> gained by throwing money around in the manner that

> Chelsea have, they both got the success and

> financial gain followed on. Which is why I always

> sneer at Chelsea. No matter what I think of Man U

> as an Arsenal supporter, I always admire the

> succes and the way they play.

Couldn't agree more Atila (this is getting weird). I would also add to that list O'Neill - three seasons at Villa and look at them now.

[matthew123]

I'm not sure continuity breeds success, I think it's more like success breeds continuity.

The managers mentioned Wenger, Moyes and O'Neill have relatively speaking had instant success on arrival and continued it - and that is why unlike other managers, such as Glenn Roeder, Bruce Rioch, Hoddle, Pardew, Scolari, Adams who had the polar opposite effect, they have not been sacked.

We can talk about Ferguson being given time to win his first trophy which I think was three and half years (1990) but back in the late eighties failing managers were given more time than today.

[Sandperson]

Fergie was on the edge of the sack, but let's face it we'd had the likes of Tommy "Shagger" Docherty, Dave Sexton and Racist Ron before that we were out of options. :-$ I'm not sure I'd say O'Neill had been that successful until now either.

[Keef]

How long was Curbishly at Charlton, and where are they now?

[matthew123]

Wikipedia is great :)

"Villa's form improved substantially following O'Neill's appointment. They had the longest unbeaten start of any Premiership side in 2006-07 (9 games), not losing a league game until 28 October."

"The 2007-08 season was a fantastic season for O'Neill and Aston Villa"

But besides that I guess it also depends on who was the previous governor.. which at Villa was the much maligned David O'Leary!

[Sandperson]

I guess I base success on trophy wins.

[matthew123]

I did say "relatively speaking" ;-)

[Mick Mac]

Sandperson Wrote:

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I'm not sure I'd say O'Neill had

> been that successful until now either.

Oneill not successful at celtic !!!! Good god man, what were you thinking.

[Sandperson]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> Sandperson Wrote:

> ----------------------------------------------

> I'm not sure I'd say O'Neill had

> > been that successful until now either.

>

>

> Oneill not successful at celtic !!!! Good god man,

> what were you thinking.

To clarify, I meant in the Premiership. Let's face it you could shave a monkey, put him in a tracksuit and give him either Rangers or Celtic to manage on any given season and he's more than likely to win the league. ;-)

[red devil]

That's no way to talk about Gordon Strachan!..

> To clarify, I meant in the Premiership. Let's face

> it you could shave a monkey, put him in a

> tracksuit and give him either Rangers or Celtic to

> manage on any given season and he's more than

> likely to win the league. ;-)

[matthew123]

Good luck to Joe Kinnear who is having a heart bypass surgery on Friday, 'earlier this month Kinnear delayed signing a contract extension'.

[Mick Mac]

Sandperson Wrote:

>

> To clarify, I meant in the Premiership. Let's face

> it you could shave a monkey, put him in a

> tracksuit and give him either Rangers or Celtic to

> manage on any given season and he's more than

> likely to win the league. ;-)

I know - only jesting - But Rangers OR Celtic may win the league every year, but which one of the 2 wins is quite important.

Before O'Neill, Celtic had won the league ONCE in 13 years, Rangers having won the other 12 - so he made an immediate impact winning the treble for Celtic in his first season, winning the league by 20 points in his 1st season and winning his first old firm game 6-2.

Given that the previous but one manager John Barnes said that Celtic were 5 years behind Rabgers this was quite an achievement.

The UEFA Cup final was probably the highlight, losing to Jose's Porto in extra time.

[matthew123]

..and John Barnes wonders why no one will offer him a a job as a Manager... bit like why Roy Evans has never been offered a Manager's job since he was eased out of the door at Anfield, back in 1998, by Gerard Houllier. Some ex-players are simply never going to make it as a Manager - did anyway ever seriously think Tony Adams would return to Arsenal to take over from Wenger?

[Keef]

Some may attack me for this, but Kenny Dalgish falls in to the same category as far as I'm concerned.

Inherited an amazing Liverpool team, then had all the best players at Blackburn. Never really proved himself to be a great manager at all, and basically failed when tested!

[red devil]

No attack, but I think Hilsborough had a massive impact on him personally, even though this happened before the Blackburn era I don't think his heart was in it anymore...

[Keef]

You could well be right. Should have avoided Newcastle like the plague though!

[Sandperson]

I was only messing MM. As an Aberdeen fan I can only watch with jealousy. Hiddink confirmed as new Chlesea boss. You should have kept your money Matthew. I predict he'll be sacked by the weekend....

[matthew123]

>> Some may attack me for this, but Kenny Dalgish falls in to the same category as far as I'm concerned.

Not sure about that Keef, seems a bit harsh.

He won the double in his first season (85/86) following Hysel which was no small feat. His biggest legacy as a Manager, on the field, was putting together the 87/88 attacking vintage of John Barnes, Peter Beardsley, John Aldridge, Ray Houghton. Remember this was the first season without Ian Rush - and many pundits had predicted Liverpool's downfall and was the catalyst for Evertonians street parties that summer. That Liverpool vintage just missed out on the double by a whisker 3 consecutive seasons 87/88 to 89/90 - and most probably would have picked up a few more European Cups. Probably the best team in the history of English football.

I had the pleasure of seeing that team a number of times during the 87/88 season - and I remember my first glimpse of John Barnes as Liverpool destroyed top of the table QPR 4-0 at Anfield with a masterclass in football led by the unstoppable John Barnes. What a team!

Of course I wouldn't bracket Dalglish alongside the very best which in my opinion (in England) are Bob Paisley, Herbert Chapman, Bill Shankly, Don Revie, Arsene Wenger and Matt Busby.... and grudgingly Alex Ferguson..

[Jah Lush]

You forgot Bill Nicholson. The manager of the first double winning side back in the Sixties, three FA Cups including two in a row, two League Cups and the manager of the first British side to win a major European trophy, the European Cup Winners Cup in 1963 and the UEFA Cup in '72. He would have won the European Cup as well in '62 long before Celtic and Man Utd if it hadn't been for some very dodgy decisions by the referee in the semi-final against Juventus or was it Inter-Milan. Can't remember, but Bill Nicholson is definitely up there with the best of them and he won it all playing stylish attacking football.

[Ted Max]

I was just going to say Bill N.

So instead I'll add Brian Clough. Pissed, corrupt, a bit touched. But some manager.

[SimonM]

I'm not at all sure Revie belongs in such august company! But Clough yes.

[Jah Lush]

Yeah that's right Don Revie was a cheating bastard and was a runner-up more times than he was a winner and he was possibly the worst England manager we've ever had who buggered off to the United Arab Emirates when offered a fat cheque and the going got tough.

[mockney piers]

A little footballing lesson from the European champions there, though the signs were far from all bad, some encouraging play and first half was well organised.

Why we weren't going with width to the towering front men once Spain had packed the midfield in the second half though, I don't know. Hanging around in front of ones own area isn't going to win us* any games.

And what a goal from our* David Villa!!

And not a bad effort from Cole at the end.

*I reserve the right to use the term we for both teams.

[????]

Agreed I thought we can learn but they/you :) have a lot of class and were only in 3rd gear....Cole unlucky

[matthew123]

England were very poor. As industrious as they were in Berlin, tonight they were yet again exposed in midfield when playing a quality team ... no ideas, no composure, no technique and no control.

Why is it every England Manager packs the central midfield with players who are just looking to make a Hollywood pass or bone crunching tackle? England need someone in the centre of midfield who can keep it ticking over with little one twos, dictate play, and juggle the ball under pressure. For me the one player who has the potential to this job, when fit, is Joe Cole. If Cole was Italian, Spanish, Argentine, Brazilian or Dutch I'm pretty sure they'd make him the heart beat of the midfield rather than wasting him on the flank.

Until the engine room is sorted out (if ever), England will never be able to compete in a tournament. They might get the occasional one off win against big boys like Argentina (2002) or Holland (1996) but to sustain that in the knockout stages hard work and luck is not enough as eventually they will get kicked out by a team that matches England's strengths but also knows how to play football... which is usually how England get knocked out in a quarter final.