Ladies be careful! (Lounged)

[honk]

Use your common sense.

Lordship Lane at 6pm is not what I would call 'high risk'.

Also internet vigilantism probably next to useless.

[honk]

TillieTrotter Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What is this thing you have about people saying

> "black" men/man. It doesn't matter what colour he

> was, he could have been any colour and it would

> still be just as threatening! He just happened to

> be a "black" man.

It was also the only description given for this apparent 'menace'. This is why I picked up on it, for as a description it is utterly useless, and, in context of the original post, appears mildly racist mainly due to no other details of this man being given.

You'd say 'a tall guy with ginger hair'

or

'a short guy with black hair and glasses'

but never

'this white guy approached me'

Jesus Christ.

[orla]

Just read through most of the replies to Halicons email. Feel I should have a bit of a say now. I am sorry if this thread has upset people in any way who have ever had any sort of serious crime committed against them, I for one am not claiming in any way that this was a serious crime. Also I did not ask for this post to be written on my behalf but if it is making people more street aware then I am glad it has been. It is so easy to develop a false sense of security when you know an area so well and all this thread is asking you to do is to remember to look over your shoulder now and again and perhaps trust your judgements. This thread is certainly not about race, it is about providing a description of a man who very clearly frightened me on friday evening. I dont know why some of you think that it was only a come on, it wasn't, this man was following me from a point past Sainsburys and when I took a different route to the one he took , he very obviously noticed and doubled back to find me. I hope that most of you men who are on this thread ,do not chase a woman down the street without making any noise ( carrying the suitcase so it can't be heard) and then continiously ask her why she feels frightened and then side stepping her every move repeating ' Im not trying to frighten you, Ive left my bag over there so you are not scared, I just want you to come over and talk to me, why are you moving away I have nothing to harm you, why are you frightened, you look scared.....I just want to talk about your boots...'. Now I am not someone who gets frightened easily, but I was. I had put myself in a very vulnerable position and he was definetly playing on this vulnerability. Part of me wanted to say f... off, you are a 6 foot middle build male who has just chased after me down a quiet side street and is continiously trying to chat and side step my every move, that is why I am frightened, instead I told him I wasnt frightened, thanks for the chat and to go back and get his belongings before someone steals it and that I could see my sister coming down the road as we spoke, at which point the guy backed off. I dont know if this guy meant any intentional harm,I don't know if he just has a boot fettish, I don't know if he has mental health problems, I don't know if he thinks this is an acceptable form of chatting a lady up or a don't know if this is one more small step into carrying out a more serious crime, what I do know that he invaded my personal space and continued to do so whilst visably seeing how anxious I was, yet he was not put off by my anxiety in anyway, that to me ( in my definition) is not normal behaviour. The incident is over now and a positive thing that has come out of this thread is that it has generated alot of discussion about womans saftey, as sometimes we take it for granted.

Thanks for reading this.

[Mick Mac]

Orla - I think we all now understand how frightening this must have been. And you are right, it has increased awareness.

[Chick]

A better description would have been useful.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Orla: Thank You for your lucid comments!

I'm delighted that Halicon and now you have takenthe time and trouble to mention and ALERT anyone reading this.

Surely, as the situation has been fully explained by you, we can ALL see that this Thread was necessary, can't we Guys...

I said, CAN'T WE GUYS!:)B)

[Tony.London Suburbs]

Chick Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> A better description would have been useful.

That IS a fair point though.

The more detail, the better.

[Keef]

Well done Orla for coming on here, and sorry to hear that you felt so frightened, and hearing your description it's not surprising. I do think however that this thread has gone a bit OTT, some people were making a bit of light out of it but not with any malice, whilst others were just trying to stop a general panic, which I know isn't what you or the OP were trying to instill in people, but it doesn't take long for a description of a weird and frightening incident can get turned in to attempted rape or murder by some. Anyway, whatever his intention, glad your sister turned up and you're okay.

[honk]

So, if we distil this entire thread down, we're left with

'Ladies, be careful when out walking alone'

Can I just throw in

'Make sure you lock doors and windows when you go out'

and

'Over, Under, Round and Through' (Handy for shoelaces!)

Maybe we could get these printed up on laminated cards and put inthe flyer racks of all ED pubs as a matter of urgency.

Presuming no-one is found asphyxiated and blue in the meantime, having forgotten to breathe.

[charliecharlie]

Tony.London Suburbs Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Chick Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > A better description would have been useful.

>

> That IS a fair point though.

> The more detail, the better.

Ref more detail.

I felt that Dulwichdoll got in the neck a bit for her level of detail in her thread 'Free market excess and the credit crunch', so I guess some people try to keep it brief in hopes that they will not receive swingeing (love that word) comments.

Am I just not quite getting it Keef, TonyLondonSuburbs and all you other established forumites??? or am I right in thinking the forum has a MEAN streak??????

Love humor, not so keen on mean...

[Tony.London Suburbs]

"It is about providing a description of a man who very clearly frightened me on friday evening. I dont know why some of you think that it was only a come on, it wasn't, this man was following me from a point past Sainsburys and when I took a different route to the one he took , he very obviously noticed and doubled back to find me. I hope that most of you men who are on this thread ,do not chase a woman down the street without making any noise ( carrying the suitcase so it can't be heard) and then continiously ask her why she feels frightened and then side stepping her every move repeating ' Im not trying to frighten you, Ive left my bag over there so you are not scared, I just want you to come over and talk to me, why are you moving away I have nothing to harm you, why are you frightened, you look scared.....I just want to talk about your boots...'. Now I am not someone who gets frightened easily, but I was. I had put myself in a very vulnerable position and he was definetly playing on this vulnerability. ".......

As the above shows, it is not simply about being aware in the time-honoured traditions.

There is "potentially" a problem in your area at the moment. Hopefully Not.

20 years ago there was a South London Train Rapist who notched up many victims.

Using your logic Honk we should not have mentioned it, even after the 6th Rape as every Woman already knows to be vigilant about potential Rapists.

[first mate]

Orla and Halcion,

Thanks for drawing attention to this incident. It sounds like it was an unsettling experience.

Honk you come across as a self righteous p**t. You were accused of being mildly sexist on another thread, is this a cack-handed attempt to show you aren't a racist too, or do you just have problems empathising with women? Either way your "point" about skin colour seems way off beam.

[*Bob*]

A 'Springer's Final Thought' moment..

On the incident itself: Orla, it does sound unnerving - I don't think anyone would question this. Most people do know not to shadow women and they walk in the street, but not everyone in a city of several million does. And just because they don't follow the rules doesn't mean they mean you harm. It certainly sounds like you dealt with the situation just fine and I personally think all women should be able to do so, because this stuff does and will happen. Women, let's try and also remember that the most dangerous thing to be in London is male and young. The statistics are on your side.

Regarding 'increasing awareness': three thousand views of a thread is surely better than two hundred, which would have been the case the only comments had been 'poor you, that sounds unpleasant'.

On the race issue: I don't have an issue with single word race identifiers per se, but the fact is that if you had the time to collate all the 'this person did something bad' incidents described on here, I'm absolutely sure the 'black' would outweigh the 'nothing at all' by a considerable margin: even more of an anomaly when you consider that 'black' people aren't even in the majority. Which either means that black people are considerably more likely to be a menace to you, or that 'black' is much more likely to be used as a single descriptive word in these situations. I know which one I think is true.

And as for 'chivalry'. This word should be confined to where it belongs: picture books and romantic adventures in film. It has nothing to do with helping someone in genuine distress, be the damzels of otherwise.

[Keef]

Am I just not quite getting it Keef, TonyLondonSuburd and all you other established forumites??? or am I right in thinking the forum has a MEAN streak??????

I don't know, show me where I have been "mean" in my 2 posts on this thread and I'll put my hands up and admit it.

I've only just seen this, and while I'm sure the incident was horrid, I am with *bob*, don't think he was being flippant, more just realistic about things.

Well done Orla for coming on here, and sorry to hear that you felt so frightened, and hearing your description it's not surprising. I do think however that this thread has gone a bit OTT, some people were making a bit of light out of it but not with any malice, whilst others were just trying to stop a general panic, which I know isn't what you or the OP were trying to instill in people, but it doesn't take long for a description of a weird and frightening incident can get turned in to attempted rape or murder by some. Anyway, whatever his intention, glad your sister turned up and you're okay.

Christ, I am a total b@stard!

[Ted Max]

I don't think he was accusing you, Keef. I think he was asking for your opinion - as a respected long time poster - on whether the board has a mean streak.

[charliecharlie]

Thanks Ted Max... no no no I was definitely not saying YOU were being mean Keef (scuse the pun)

yiks... easy to be miss-read, pretty new to all this and just trying to get my eye in as to what the written 'tones' mean!!!

[SeanMacGabhann]

charliecharlie

firstly, TonyLondonSuburbs an established forumite?? Has it come to this ;-)

Seriously tho, I thought orla's post was excellent and provided much more background in a way that I didn't get from the initial post. (Which I'm not knocking either btw) Up until that point I thought there was a fair bit of room for a discussion about what constitutes losing perspective. And some people's instinct leant more towards compassion whereas others, given the detail at the time, thought that it might have been an overreaction. And people do sometimes overreact and shout fire in a theatre so it's good to have people who question that too. I don't think it constitutes meanness.

Keef expressed it pretty well a few posts ago too.

As for Dulwichdoll - I don't think she got it in the neck on the other thread for the detail.. maybe the content and tone. In these times ( © every bleedin media outlet ) any businessperson accusing employees of being useless probably faces a less than sympathetic public

[charliecharlie]

Hello Ted Max as a ps

I am a she not a he

my name can confuse

[Ted Max]

You know, I was going to give it the old she/he/it/whatever and thought, no, that's a male name right there. I feel a right charlie now.

[Keef]

I don't think he was accusing you, Keef. I think he was asking for your opinion - as a respected long time poster - on whether the board has a mean streak.

Sorry charliecharlie, misunderstood. In my opinion then, I'd say no.

I think there are people on here who like to have a laugh and a joke, sometimes inappropriately, but I wouldn't say in a mean way. I think on here people made a couple of light comments at the beggining, and the OP seemed to go along with the joke, and it was all in good spirits. Then others came on and got a bit offended and high horses were gotten on.

I don't know everyone on here by any stretch, and I have never met *bob*, but I find him funny. On this thread however, I don't think he was trying to be funny as such, I think he was just trying to stop a tide of hysteria from people that had read the original post, which should have been taken as a warning to be vigilant, and taken it to mean there was a dangerous loon on the streets and lives were at risk.

That's the way I see it anyway.

[Tony.London Suburbs]

What Uncle Max said.

Everyone of our comments has been Positive on this thread Keef so I'm positive that any perceived meanness positively doesn't positively mean me and thee.

We're The Good Guys!(tu)

[charliecharlie]

Thanks Sean, yes all up for all views being aired, and the EDF provides a great space for debate, just felt that a few forumites can be a bit harsh/hard (mean even) at times, I think they're trying to be funny, and one of my all time favorite past times is laughter, but it's not always easy to 'read' if meant to be funny, guess that's cr*p humor for you!

Some of you EDF lot are brilliantly funny though... so loving it, only thing is I should be working... eeekkk

[Penguin68]

In many cases we (individually) come across something which is frightening or disturbing. We may have misread or misunderstood someone?s signals or intentions, this may be a wholly isolated incident.

Or we may not and it may not be.

As individuals we don?t know whether we ?ought? to report the incident (perhaps because the person is wilfully threatening, perhaps because they are in need of psychiatric help) or simply let it pass.

Flagging such an incident on a board like this allows others to be aware ? if it turns out that others have also been accosted (or whatever) then the pressure to report it becomes stronger; if no one else has had a similar incident then it may well be a one off (in which nothing untoward actually happened, even if the threat of that was real) and can be ignored.

It appears, so far, that no one else who reads the board has suffered a similar incident. Good

But if we say nothing, give no warnings ? and then something dreadful does happen?

[Tony.London Suburbs]

charliecharlie Wrote:

.. and one of my all time favorite past times is laughter,

One of your "past" times??

Isn't laughter one of your Pastimes anymore?:))

Sorry:)-D

I'm not really pedantic.

In fact I never even mentioned Sean's spelling of Calibre, immediately below...::o

[SeanMacGabhann]

indeed CC, indeed. Believe you me when some of the regular forumites of the caliber of TillieTrotter and Moos to name but two are ranged against one, it doesn't half concentrate the mind