Petition re Dulwich Hospital site

[edhistory]

Beryl Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> As someone new to the thread - and having read all

> of it - can someone please tell me who is James

> Barber? And how much are Harris paying him?

On 27 February 2014 Beryl Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I also note that during these threads there have

> been many calls for a public meeting ie. one

> larger than can be accommodated at Mr Barber's

> house. I would support that call now that things

> have progressed - an open meeting for full and

> frank discussion of the issues would surely be

> timely? I know Mr Barber is keen to postpone this

> until after the application but surely the

> application will represent the views of the

> steering group and not necessarily reflect any

> consensus?

[bawdy-nan]

Doh! more fool me for thinking that was a genuine question.. tricksy.

edhistory Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Beryl Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > As someone new to the thread - and having read

> all

> > of it - can someone please tell me who is James

> > Barber? And how much are Harris paying him?

>

> On 27 February 2014 Beryl Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > I also note that during these threads there

> have

> > been many calls for a public meeting ie. one

> > larger than can be accommodated at Mr Barber's

> > house. I would support that call now that

> things

> > have progressed - an open meeting for full and

> > frank discussion of the issues would surely be

> > timely? I know Mr Barber is keen to postpone

> this

> > until after the application but surely the

> > application will represent the views of the

> > steering group and not necessarily reflect any

> > consensus?

[James Barber]

Mrs.Lotte,

I do not oppose the new Ivydale. I just think instead of Ivydale providing it via a second site being paid for by Southwark Council taxpayers the free school route should have been followed. It would see the ?4.5M bill being picked up by central government. It would see more choice locally and it wouldn't see Ivydale with 4 forms of entry per year.

Hi LondonMix, mariabate,

The problem isn't a potential primary school but the pricing of the land due to zoning of the site.

Without re zoning we may well see a secondary school with minimal land.

Do you think The DfE is going to spend ?64M on the land we all wish the secondary school to have?

I think everyone is so blinkered about a possible primary school on this site they're ignoring that Southwark Council could zone another site to house any primary school BUT IS REFUSING. That the hospital site being zoned for housing will mean the size of land we all won't for it won't be affordable because Southwark IS REFUSING TO REZONE the site.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

'Could' doesn't mean they WILL. We will cross each bridge when we come to it but right now we are making it clear we want a certain amount of Space for a NHS centre plus a Secondary School with grounds . We don't want a Harris primary for Nunhead, everything else is as and when .

[first mate]

James, on the contrary it seems that it is you that is blindly pushing for a second primary school on the site, or at least trying to ensure the land is secured for this in future, using whatever argument you can.

Let go of your very obvious ties to Harris and then we can all focus on ensuring this land is secured for hospital services and a decent secondary school. People do not want another school on that site.

You have not answered whether the new proposed health centre will supply all the services that the hospital used to, nor how many dedicated doctors on site. A really good service is vital for the area, it just all seems lost in the push for a primary school nobody seems to want.

[first mate]

Perhaps one of the labour councillors can come on this site and tell us in greater detail about proposals for the hospital part of the site, how it will be resourced and what services will be offered, perhaps they can also answer

James' assertions about Southwark's alleged refusal to rezone the land. Can someone state what sort of footprint will be available for the proposed secondary school and at what cost for that land?

The public really tire of this being used to score political points so James please resist the urge to spin a reply and let's see if any of your colleagues in other parties can come back with a straight and honest response..

I think after Heygate etc.. If there was even a whiff that much valued community space would be sold off to developers, based on some convenient technical planning/council speak hitch there might well be trouble on streets.

[Administrator]

There's obviously some councillor bashing going on as well some lying and stirring (see Beryl's post). I understand it's a topic close to people's heart but please keep it clean and truthful, and remember you can contact the councillor(s) directly and you can organise a public meeting to speak and discuss this face to face.

[intexasatthe moment]

" ?4.5M bill being picked up by central government " - it's not picked up by central government ,it's paid for by taxpayers - US .

" Southwark Council could zone another site to house any primary school BUT IS REFUSING. That the hospital site being zoned for housing will mean the size of land we all won't for it won't be affordable because Southwark IS REFUSING TO REZONE the site. "

Are there two issues in this quote ? Another site for a primary if Southwark re zoned it ? Is the reference to East Dulwich Harris Girls on Homestall Rd . Where the head says there's not enough room ? And which is MOL ? Which Southwark can't change .

"Without re zoning we may well see a secondary school with minimal land." - is it being admitted now that this would be a bad thing ?

East Dulwich Harris Boys is on a tiny site ,so small that although specialising in sport students are transported to other sites for this function ,so small that the original planning application suggested that students could have staggered start times to mitigate the crush . All concerns about lack of space were argued away .And it's getting the results - which seems all that matters in this current climate of tick box education .

[edanna]

Can someone explain the thing about Southwark zoning the site? I thought the issue was that the land had a covenant on it saying it had to be used for the health of the people or something. Are these 2 separate issues? And if zoning is the issue how can we pressurise Southwark on this?

[first mate]

ITATM,

Great points and as you so rightly indicate, it is amazing how a completely opposite position to one formerly taken can be used when it suits.

Admin, no councillor bashing simply stating how sick many of us are of spin and obfuscation. I have asked for other councillors to come on simply as a way to get past all the political claptrap and get to the bottom of what is really going on. I am not partisan at all, simply interested in ensuring we have a good secondary school that people and voters want and most of all a decent health centre that delivers what is required.

Anyhow politicians have to have thick skins and get on with it, no-one is forcing use of this forum for debate, though I for one am glad it is being used for this subject.

[Administrator]

There is a difference between councillors and politicians.

Anyway I totally understand you're trying to get through the fluff, I would too, but I'm aiming it at people like Beryl how lie that they are new to the thread and start throwing accusations about individual councillors receiving payments. If they have the evidence to support that then take it to the proper authorities, but please do not use the forum to spurt out accusations of illegal behaviour.

[LondonMix]

The zoning issue is separate from the topic of this thread.

James is telling the community to drop the point about the Harris primary and focus on what he feels is a more serious threat to the secondary school. He believes the NHS will try to convince residential developers that they will get permission for residential use if they bid on the land, increasing its value so that the EFA can't afford to either buy as much of it or any of it potentially in a bidding war. How serious a threat this is at this point is hard to determine. If it is a serious threat I don't see why the community can't push for only a secondary as well as specific guidance from Southwark that residential planning permission won't be granted. They are two separate issues that don't preclude one another. There is no need to drop the campaign for only a secondary school and health services on the Dulwich Hospital site.

The other point James is trying to make is that Southwark (which is Labour led) is essentially forcing Harris on to the Dulwich Hospital site by refusing to rezone Harris' preferred site which is on the Nunhead border. The land in question is Metropolitan Open Land near Harris's all girls secondary school on the Nunhead / ED border. There are several issues with the claim James is making here:

1. It's irrelevant to the point at hand as there is no need to build a primary school in Dulwich to serve Nunhead given the projected surplus in Bellenden and Dulwich that can already deal with Nunhead overflow. So even if the claim is true, its not a justification for using the Hospital site.

2. Renata has spoken to Harris (as she confirmed earlier on this thread) and there is no active plan to use the site and no plans have been submitted for approval

3. Metropolitan Open Land is the city equivalent of greenbelt land. The threshold to get approval is very high and requires approval from the Mayor amongst others so is not something Southwark has full control over.

[first mate]

Thank you LM for your useful and informative outline of the key points.

I would not be at all surprised if developers were circling and looking for opportunities, that is why it would be helpful, in my view, to get statements from other parties on how they intend to ensure this does not happen.

[James Barber]

Hi LondonMix,

Whether you or I agree a Harris primary is needed is pretty immaterial. They have been approved to open a new primary school before two other new proposed primary schools and the EFA will find a site for it. Without Southwark Coumncil zoning another site for a primary school - Habs would like the spare MOL land on the girls school, I would suggest 520 Lordship Lane - the only site in the area is the Dulwich Hospital. We can either ensure an alternative to the Dulwich Hospital site or people can continue to make a fuss - but the EFA don't have a mechanism to un approve this school.

The EFA will also decide whether to approve either or both of the free secondary school applications. They will then need to find a site.

Evidence for the land value if zoned for residential is the ?6M paid for 1,800m2 the former East Dulwich police station Christmas 2013. We're asking for 19,550m2 for a secondary school which cost ?64M. House prices and persumably land values have risen since Christmas 2013 but circa 20%.

NHS Property have, despite knowing we planned to organsie an application for a free secondary school, soft marketed the site to the like of Berkelys and co. They clearly wish to obtain housing land prices.

The current book value of the hospital for community use is ?18M making the secondsary school land price ?12M.

21 October Southwark's Cabinet Committee of councillors are considering the Southwark Plan and IF they chose to ask officers to consider re zoning the hopsital site it would immediately have some weight in the planning process and pricing for this site.

[first mate]

James, you seem to suggest that at the moment, because of the process of approval, a Harris primary would take precedence on the hospital site, should another site not be found, because it cannot be'unapproved'.

As LM suggests, you are mixing separate issues. We can all agree that the hospital site should be secured for health and education purposes, but you seem to make that result dependent on Harris getting a slice of the action.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Surely Harris can pull out if they wanted to especially knowing this isn't Nunhead and we don't want them ?

Harris doesn't HAVE to build on the Dulwich hospital site if they don't want to or am I being naive in thinking Harris has the option to reject the site or to refuse to build another school given that they are not needed ?

[BrandNewGuy]

As I understand it, NHS Property has an obligation to seek out the best options for land disposal (subject to it not being required for health purposes). According to a National Audit Office report, the chair of NHS Property Services? Audit and Governance Committee, said:

?We are clear that it is our role to reduce the operating costs of the NHS estate and to release land for much-needed local housing wherever possible and practical and we look forward to getting on with that task.?

http://www.property.nhs.uk/national-audit-office-report-shows-first-year-progress/

And if the land is worth far more because it can be sold for housing, then that benefits the public purse. Which might be unfortunate from the point of view of putting a school(s) on the site, but that's not NHS Property's business. Robbing DfE to pay NHS?

[LondonMix]

Hi James,

It is actually part of the guidelines regarding free schools not to locate new schools in areas where it would create surpluses. So just because Harris cannot find a viablie site in Nunhead in no-way suggests they should get the Dulwich hospital site. In fact, the guidelines suggest quite the opposite given the existing projected surplus in the Dulwich area and this isn't my opinion but rather the official legal framework.

Without this legal framework the free school system is nothing but chaos.

I think you would be better served pushing to find a site in Nunhead rather than burdening the Dulwich area with a primary school the community neither needs nor wants that compromises the much needed and much desired secondary school.

[James Barber]

The Dfe/EFA approved the Harris free school consdiering allthe factors they have to. Two further primary schools have been approved/agreed since. So on places/surplus the argument is over whether people like that or not.

The only way alternatives site for the Harris primary school is for Southwark to do something which they are refusing to do... so far.

Hi BNG,

Exactly. If the zoning of the dulwich Hospital says housing then NHS Property will move heaven and earth to seel land for housing. Southwark Council can stop that by changing the zoning. So far Southwark have refused to change the zoning.

Both issues require Southwark to change zoning. Petitioning anyone else wont change one iota of this situation but it does give the illusion of action.

[confusedbyitall]

Response from Harriet Harmans Office -

Dear all,

Thank you for contacting Harriet with your concerns about the future use of the Dulwich Hospital site.

Harriet has asked me to let you know that she has noted your concerns about having a new primary school on this site, and your strong support for a secondary school.

A number of people have contacted Harriet whose children are currently in primary schools in Camberwell and Peckham, and who are strongly in favour of having a new secondary school on this site to serve the Nunhead/Dulwich area.

I?d like to reassure you that Harriet is fully aware of this issue, and to let you know that she will shortly be meeting with the two groups that have submitted applications to build a new secondary school on the site (Haberdashers Aske and Charter).

I will keep you updated. In the meantime, please don?t hesitate to contact Harriet again on this or any other issue.

Best wishes,

[LondonMix]

James-- why don't you post the Harris application here for transparency.

The DfE could not have approved a school to be created in East Dulwich based on the current situation and Harris's own statements on the matter are clear the school was approved for Nunhead by the DfE.

I would like to see on what basis in the application you believe the DfE have sanctioned the opening of a school in the Dulwich area.

Do you agree to share the information (which will likely become public via a FOI request in due course)? Otherwise, I find your contention impossible to believe based on the information known to date.

[bawdy-nan]

I'm not at all clear about the validity of the zoning for housing issue, but it is something that James has consistently raised over a long period and no-one from the Labour group, at councillor, or MP level has addressed - one for Helen Hayes (prospective Tess replacement)? Tessa? Renata?

If they think this is a red-herring I'd like to hear why. If not, I'd like to hear ideas from them about how to progress.

[first mate]

James, are you saying that Harris gets part of the site, if available, simply because they were first past the post on process, irregardless of real merit or popular support/ need?

Indin't think NHS property are stealing land, if I have understood, everything they do is in the gift of the Sec of State for Health. The remit for NHS Property clearly states that any land not used/ required for health should be sold for housing, that is a govt decision is it not?

[first mate]

Thinking on, If there is a clear, govt directed remit for use of 'surplas' NHS land, I do not see how LA directives could necessarily override that. The LA housing zone element really does seem to be a red herring, unless some wise soul can shed further light on this, unlike the former police station this land is wholly owned by the NHS, we are not comparing like with like.

[LondonMix]

The original application approved for Nunhead was already via a very unorthodox (if not illegal) application of the rules. No, to try to stretch that to a mandate to open a primary school in Dulwich is awful.

James, Harris is an education charity. Whatever, ego is involved in this battle, they need to step back and look at their original mission statement and see common sense and withdraw their interest on the hospital site.

One thing I respect about Habs is that they refuse to open a school unless they have both community support and broadbased political support. Why can't Harris behave the same way? Why battle the community in such a fashion?