Petition re Dulwich Hospital site

[StraferJack]

Yup - I've got the point about secondaries and I'm trying to find out what Southwark's stated position on them is

not sure about "as average pupil numbers fall across Dulwich" tho' - increasing number of primary schools increases supply, so demand spreads across these schoold. But if Harris have more than one of these schools how is that not going to cannablise them? What's in it for them?

[LondonMix]

SJ, the stated position of Sothwark on secondaries is what I said and you can find it in the document linked to earlier.

[StraferJack]

Helpful

[LondonMix]

Here is the link again in case you can't find it buried in the thread.

http://moderngov.southwark.gov.uk/documents/s45063/Report%20School%20Places%20Strategy%20Update.pdf

Also, Southwark at a meeting earlier this year tabled a motion in support of this particular school as well though I am not sure where you can find the minutes as I followed the outcome on twitter.

Sorry if my posts during my morning commute were incomprehensible. Tessa Jowell's most recent letter provides the most clear and compelling statement on the issues to hand, so its worth reading if you can find it on her website. Tessa and Labour in general are fully supportive of the campaign to prevent the primary school opening on the hospital site.

[njc97]

LondonMix/James B - have any projections for demand for primary places beyond Sept 2016 been done? Isnt it now possible to project out another two years by looking at births to Sept 14?

Also the projected shortfall for secondary place is ugly: 14 classes short by 2020. That's 3 schools!

[LondonMix]

No idea on further out. I believe Renata has said in the past that after 2016 the existing analysis is that demand stabilizes for primary places based on current analysis but here are the people who are best place to answer your question!

Cabinet Member

Councillor Dora Dixon-Fyle, Cabinet Member for Children?s

Services

Lead Officer Kerry Crichlow, Director of Strategy and Commissioning

Children?s and Adults? Services

I agree, the secondary situation is dire. However, I understand Southwark have already started approaching existing secondaries about their abilities to expand given how few sites there are for new secondary schools.

[Otta]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> 4. Even if Harris can't find a site in Nunhead

> there are better options in Bellenden to deal with

> the potential shortage than building a primary

> school on the Dulwich Hospital site which is much

> more difficult to access from Nunhead

StraferJack Wrote:

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> 4 - shrug. I lived next door to that site for

> years. Would be happy for it to be a school. I

> regularly walked from there to Nunhead.- can't see

> a single problem of any note

On this one I want to be with you SJ but I can't. I moved from literally around the corner from my daughter's school to 1.2 miles away (according to google maps). I initially thought I'd walk it every day because I walk all over the place and would easily do that in 20 minutes.

However, throw a young child in early years in to the equation and that soon becomes 30 minutes plus. Expecting a child to do that before they've even started, then again when they're knackered at the end of the day is too much IMO.

[Jeremy]

Otta Wrote:

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> However, throw a young child in early years in to

> the equation and that soon becomes 30 minutes

> plus. Expecting a child to do that before they've

> even started, then again when they're knackered at

> the end of the day is too much IMO.

Sling em over your shoulder.

[James Barber]

Ignoring the stupid name another primary school wherever it is sited would have distance based admissions and take applicants based that. So very unlikely only people from Nunhead would apply. It would instead affect admissions to other schools. A series of 2D domino's. So the average distance for any new school is likely to be longer to start with until it has a great reputiation and then rapidly shrink.

As we have so many good local schools and distances are so short it's likely it would be offering places to people locally that fall outside admissions but within 2 miles the distance the council works to since 2010 local elections.

Space.

Haberdashers' say they would ideally have 19,550m2 for a 1,150 pupil secondary school. They even state they could reduce teacher parking and go up to 3 or 4 storey building to reduce this footprint - ideally this would be used for more sports facilities.

Primary schools locally have been a minimum of 1,800m2 for 420 pupil primary school.

Hospital site is 28,300m2.

Replacement health facilities stated as needing 7,000-9,000m2 of land and they plan 100+ car parking spaces.

So both schools potentially could fit on the site with both schools having exactly the land they want.

BUT it would be even better if another alternate site for the primary school could be found and Southwark Council are critical for that and so are refusing to act.

Equally the land as zoned will be too expensive for the secondary school - zoned for housing 19,550m2 is valued at ?64M+. Before free schools were possible we built a secondary school (Harris ED Boys) which has 3,500m2 as we couldnt acquirer any hospital land in 2005/6. I'm really keen to don't have so little land.

Again Southwark Council removing the zoning for housing from the Dulwich Hopsital site is critical to avoid this. Again they are refusing to act.

[LondonMix]

James are still claiming Southwark are blocking Harris from using Metropolitain Open Land to develop the school in Nunhead?

Didn't Renata confirm Harris had no plans to use that land which is part of one of their schools (after speaking with the Head) and isn't this decision ultimately made by the Mayor of London?

Also, in the official literature hasn't Habs stated they need the full site to provide the facilities presented to the community as part of the official consultation?

[StraferJack]

On reflection, I think you have me on that one Otta

Also, now that the situation has been made clearer to me, I can really see what people are getting agitated about

[Otta]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Otta Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > However, throw a young child in early years in

> to

> > the equation and that soon becomes 30 minutes

> > plus. Expecting a child to do that before

> they've

> > even started, then again when they're knackered

> at

> > the end of the day is too much IMO.

>

> Sling em over your shoulder.

You have no idea how close to the mark you are. My daughter is now 5.5 and still wants to go everywhere on my shoulders. My lower back is caving!

[mikeb]

Sites in central London for new secondary schools are few and far between. Starting off with a 'generous' amount of land for the secondary gives the school options for the next 20 years, including if relevant building another / more school. Every school I know has expanded in some way over the years.

Just because right now we can't quite identify where else to put a (much smaller primary school), we shouldn't build a sub-standard secondary school.

James - isn't the point about "price of land" independent of whether there is also a primary school on the site? I mean ?65m is ludicrous to start with. This is just a transfer of public sector assets from the [LEA] school sector to the [local health board] health sector - can't someone in central government intervene?

[StraferJack]

" My daughter is now 5.5 and still wants to go everywhere on my shoulders. My lower back is caving!"

so glad I'm not alone

less glad that I'm likely to be facing it for a few years yet

[Fuschia]

James said:

As we have so many good local schools and

> distances are so short it's likely it would be

> offering places to people locally that fall

> outside admissions but within 2 miles

But the basis of a free school approval is supposed to be that there are not sufficient high quality spaces available, and the signatures in support are supposed to be from families in commuting distance.

If the parents who signed up wanted a school in Nunhead, I don't understand how their support can just be switched to a school 2 miles away.

[LondonMix]

Exactly Fuschia. This is a violation of the legal framework surround the entire process and I understand Tessa has raised this point specifically with David Law.

Moreover, a school in Nunhead is only needed if its assumed that primary age pupils should not be expected to commute long distances which is reasonable for all the reasons Otta and others have highlighted.

If we take for granted that primary age pupils must commute as there is no alternative, then there is already supply in Bellenden and Dulwich to deal with the Nunhead shortage and no additional new school is needed in Dulwich.

You can't say there is a shortage in Nunhead to justify building a school in Dulwich when there is already spare capacity in Dulwich in Peckham Rye. Its illogical and doesn't add up.

[James Barber]

Hi Otta,

Children on shoulders is fun for no more than 5 mins. So we used to have a policy when we led the council of fidning schools, unless thefamily chose a specific religious or other specialist choice, within 1 mile of the home. Nationally the limit is 2 miles which Southwark now follow.

Hi Londonmix,

Yes, the Harris Federation would like to build their school on the Harris ED Girls School. No, Renata confirmed with the head teacher of the Harris ED Girls school not the Harris Federation. But it is classed as Metropolitan Open Land. Even using it to temporarily house the Harri ED primary school while the permanent school is built was amazingly contraversial at the planning committee. It was really embarassing to see councillors lambast the applicant for officers errors and delays. Weirdly private schools in Southwark get to build on MOL. Perhaps they have the stomach to fight Southwark whereas Harris have preferred so far not to. I personally believe they would win any planning appeal if they applied to permanently build there and were refused.

[Renata Hamvas]

I've signed the petition.

It was the Head of Harris Girl's ED I spoke to, a while ago now. She said there was no free/surplus space on the site. It is a sports specialty school. Part of the site which was used for sports was used to temporarily house their 6th form while the 6th form block was being built. A member of staff told me that after that part of their grounds was used for this it would take some work to get it back into shape for sports use and it's this area that has been used for the temporary siting of the Harris ED Free Primary until 2016. this date is significant as I believe the Harris Free School Nunhead is due to open in September 2015. The timeline for the temporary location for Harris ED means that the pupils wouldn't be on the former Police Station site until after the Nunhead school would be due to open, so it would be challenging to use it for Harris Nunhead even temporary basis. I believe the letter I saw from Harris said they would have liked to put it on the Harris Girl's site, but it's not possible as it's metropolitan open land, so I don't believe that Harris have pushed for this location themselves, also it would be 4 minutes walk to the Ivydale, Stuart Road site (by my walking speed).

There is demand for primary school places further north in the Borough, so I think if I was in Harris's shoes I would set up a primary school in a location where there is a predicted need for more primary places within Southwark. I am flabbergasted that the Harris Nunhead application appears to have been piggybacked on the signatures of parents in the southern parts of East Dulwich which were already used for the support for the application for Harris ED.

We need another secondary in the ED area to cope with the increased numbers of 11 year olds from 2016 onwards. I don't want to see the facilities of a new secondary compromised due to Harris Nunhead being squeezed onto this site. A local health care centre for local people is also necessary, an adequate space also needs to be allocated to this too. A pie cut into too many pieces is not the best solution for local residents.

Renata

[Katy Tonbridge]

Renata - I totally agree.

Renata Hamvas Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I've signed the petition.

> It was the Head of Harris Girl's ED I spoke to, a

> while ago now. She said there was no free/surplus

> space on the site. It is a sports specialty

> school. Part of the site which was used for sports

> was used to temporarily house their 6th form while

> the 6th form block was being built. A member of

> staff told me that after that part of their

> grounds was used for this it would take some work

> to get it back into shape for sports use and it's

> this area that has been used for the temporary

> siting of the Harris ED Free Primary until 2016.

> this date is significant as I believe the Harris

> Free School Nunhead is due to open in September

> 2015. The timeline for the temporary location for

> Harris ED means that the pupils wouldn't be on the

> former Police Station site until after the Nunhead

> school would be due to open, so it would be

> challenging to use it for Harris Nunhead even

> temporary basis. I believe the letter I saw from

> Harris said they would have liked to put it on the

> Harris Girl's site, but it's not possible as it's

> metropolitan open land, so I don't believe that

> Harris have pushed for this location themselves,

> also it would be 4 minutes walk to the Ivydale,

> Stuart Road site (by my walking speed).

>

> There is demand for primary school places further

> north in the Borough, so I think if I was in

> Harris's shoes I would set up a primary school in

> a location where there is a predicted need for

> more primary places within Southwark. I am

> flabbergasted that the Harris Nunhead application

> appears to have been piggybacked on the signatures

> of parents in the southern parts of East Dulwich

> which were already used for the support for the

> application for Harris ED.

>

> We need another secondary in the ED area to cope

> with the increased numbers of 11 year olds from

> 2016 onwards. I don't want to see the facilities

> of a new secondary compromised due to Harris

> Nunhead being squeezed onto this site. A local

> health care centre for local people is also

> necessary, an adequate space also needs to be

> allocated to this too. A pie cut into too many

> pieces is not the best solution for local

> residents.

> Renata

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

I was one of those that signed for a new primary in the area but no way did I want TWO Harris primary schools . If I had known that my signature would have been abused in this way I would never have lent my support just as I hope my support for a new secondary isn't used to start opening up a secondary school for say Forest Hill within Dulwich just because I signed a petition for what I assume to be one secondary on the hospital site .

Renata,I am in total agreement with you .

[morgy]

I'm guessing two schools would result in a lot more disruption on surrounding streets...has any thought been given to that?

[Otta]

"I believe the Harris Free School Nunhead is due to open in September 2015. "

Even if this school does go ahead, that is never going to happen.

[Fuschia]

DulwichBorn&Bred Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I was one of those that signed for a new primary

> in the area but no way did I want TWO Harris

> primary schools . If I had known that my signature

> would have been abused in this way

The free school application must be supported by the leaflets that supporters were shown before they signed up, and their addresses plotted on a map to show how close they are to the proposed new school.

I just can't see how that can have happened in the case of Harris Nunhead

[Penguin68]

11 months to fully clear the site for building works (if it does have an underlying asbestos or other contamination problem) and build a working school is pushing it somewhat, even assuming all permissions had been granted, which they haven't. Unless they are planning to open in portacabins this is not, as has been stated above, achievable. If they do plan to open in portacabins, with what justification? With so much on the site there would be a real need to have a fully integrated plan, showing how each establishment (primary, secondary, health centre) would work with each other. Those take time to agree.

This has all the feel of a Tesco style land grab by Harris - tieing up as much land as they can in SE London either for posible future use or to keep competitors out.

It's not Nunhead, nor is it conveniant for Nunhead, particularly with issues of access for Primary children; it's not needed (as regards primary school places) at least as far as current forecasts apparently have it and it will place unneccessary pressures on co-sited establishments (there is, I believe, an issue regarding secondary places locally).

The arguments about the name are spurious - the justifciation for it (so far as there is one) is predicated on Nunhead need - whatever they call it, it is justified (and I use that word quite wrongly) as a primary for Nunhead.

[Belle]

As far as I know though, free school applications don't name a site - it is for the EFA to find a site for a proposed new school. In the case of the two secondary bids, obviously there's just one site that would work - but neither bidder can lay claim to it and I'm not sure it could have been mentioned in any concrete terms as part of the proposal.