Petition re Dulwich Hospital site

[James Barber]

thanks nxjen. Have corrected.

[BrandNewGuy]

And nearly all hospitals/property the NHS 'inherited' in the 40s were paid for by churches, philanthropy or public subcription, but that's what happens when you nationalise something. The current dilemma is:

1. Should NHS Property get the best price it can for land that it regards as surplus to its own requirements - therefore benefiting healthcare expenditure?

2. Or should it have a general social remit, such as offering the land for a cheaper price to provide school(s), to the detriment of healthcare expenditure?

I'm not sure that's an easy dilemma to solve.

[toffeese15]

Skimming this, and apologies to those whose contributions deserve more of my attention, but looking at the latest developments, would I be right in assuming that a secondary school on the Dulwich hospital site is looking less and less likely? And, even if such a school was eventually built, it is unlikely to be operating within the next 4-5 years?

[James Barber]

Hi toffeese15,

A secondary school is just as likely - I think really good chance we'll have one.

The issue is whether it would have as much land as we'd like for it.

But it is really good news that after 22 years clear firm plans for sorting out the Dulwich Hospital and its site.

[James Barber]

A year ago I submitted a Right to Contest the spare land at the Dulwich Hospital site. This right was created by Lib Dems in the coalition government.

Please see the attached letter from the Rt Hon Francis Maude MP - Minister for the Cabinet Office

I'm delighted at last to report that as a direct result of my request the spare land has now been added to the Register of Surplus Public Land. This is a key pre requisite for any new use such as new schools.

NHS property have held back 11,300m3 of the 28,300m2 for the new health centre. So I will check whether more than the 17,000m2 can be released at this point. In public meeting they've said they'll only need 7,000-9,000m2 for the new health centre. I suspect they're being ultra cautious.

Patience is a virtue I have little of but I'm delighted that all the chasing by myself and Lib Dem colleagues at all levels of local, regional and national government and the support of the Cabinet Office has been successful.

This prepares the ground for the Educational Finance Agency to tell us its decision of whether they've selected either The Charter School or Haberdashers' Aske's Federation to open a new secondary school for us and have a site to house it in.

[bawdy-nan]

That's very good news - thank you for pursuing this.

[Otta]

Still won't save the Lib Dems come May though.

[Sue]

Otta Wrote:

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> Still won't save the Lib Dems come May though.

Oh FFS

[simonethebeaver]

The possibility that there will be even less space for the school than previously thought makes it important to keep up pressure on the DfE and EFA not to put a primary school on the site too. Please sign the petition if you haven't already and it matters to you.

https://www.change.org/p/david-laws-mp-don-t-squeeze-two-schools-onto-the-dulwich-hospital-site

I am heartened that James seems to have abandoned his support for placing the primary on the site though.

[Otta]

Sue Wrote:

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> Otta Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Still won't save the Lib Dems come May though.

>

>

> Oh FFS

'sup Sue?

[James Barber]

Hi simonthebeaver,

How much space do you think is required?

[LondonMix]

There is a lot more than just Ivydale planned. There are expansions and new schools in Bellenden area of Peckham Rye, new and permanent expansion of Dulwich area schools etc. This has all been covered in other parts of the thread. There is actually a projected SURPLUS of places once all the new schools / expansions are finished and that is excluding this ridiculous Nunhead primary. Adding an entire additional primary school in the South of the borough will simply result in surplus spaces. We are too far away from where the north of the borough where the real shortage will continue to exist. The schools in those areas will likely bulge before sending small children this far south for primary school.

Habs have clearly said they need all of the site not used by the medical facilities. Its in their original marketing material for the proposed facilities for the secondary.

henryb Wrote:

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> bawdy-nan Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > But isn't it the case that other expansions are

> > already planned that more than fulfill any

> > anticipated shortfall in Southwark in relation

> to

> > primary places?

>

> Are you referring to the Ivydale expansion? The

> current black hole of primary provision extends

> all the way to Forest Hill Rd. To cover that

> Ivydale's catchment area would need to be 1300m.

> In 2013 the catchment area was 600m with a 3 class

> in-take. I can't see how the school will cover 4

> times the area with one extra class.

>

> What are the plans for the area at the top of

> Underhill Road? As I understand it none of the

> schools around there are expanding. I don't think

> Horniman can take any more bulge classes.

[LondonMix]

Sorry for my long absence but its very disappointing to read the same nonsense being spouted despite the fact that all of it was discussed at length before.

I'm more than a little horrified that James has suggested that he hopes there will be two secondary schools as a result of the competing applications. Again, there is no evidence there is need for two secondary schools in this part of the borough and that is not how anyone was told their support could be used or interpreted. Elsewhere in Southwark (if that's were one of the schools ends up) parents may want a single sexed school and end up with what Dulwich parents have asked for. This isn't how the process is supposed to work and I hope no one is advocating for both applications being accepted.

[simonethebeaver]

James, as much space as possible, personally. But I'll go by your suggestion upthread that "our ideal secondary school would need 19,550m2". It already has less than that if the NHS is in fact only releasing 17,000m square. Adding a primary to the site compromises the secondary even futher.

[henryb]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> Sorry for my long absence but its very

> disappointing to read the same nonsense being

> spouted despite the fact that all of it was

> discussed at length before.

No need to become abusive.

So come 2016 what will be the expected catchment areas for Ivydale, Goodrich and Fairlawn?

[Penguin68]

It already has less than that if the NHS is in fact only releasing 17,000m square

I believe that a second storey, as it were, would double the space, a third treble it. I believe that the 19,500 sq metres would be achieved by a multi-storey building on the 17,000m square site, leaving space for outside activities (that, clearly, on only one level). But please, James, correct me if I'm wrong. But hence earlier suggestions to cram in two schools by putting them in tower blocks.

[simonethebeaver]

I think, Penguin, although also may be wrong, that the square footage discussed by Habs and others includes buildings up to a number of floors considered optimum for school architecture, rather than just the square footage of land itself. So if, say, three floors is considered ideal, then it's 19,550 square metres of three storey buildings.

[LondonMix]

I wasn't referring to you and I wasn't being abusive. Some of James assertions are false and this has been demonstrated repeatedly by multiple users and he persists. I find that both tedious and misleading.

Your question is fine and I tried to help you by answering it so don't be so defensive.

henryb Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> LondonMix Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Sorry for my long absence but its very

> > disappointing to read the same nonsense being

> > spouted despite the fact that all of it was

> > discussed at length before.

>

> No need to become abusive.

>

> So come 2016 what will be the expected catchment

> areas for Ivydale, Goodrich and Fairlawn?

[henryb]

LondonMix Wrote:

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> I wasn't referring to you and I wasn't being

> abusive. Some of James assertions are false and

> this has been demonstrated repeatedly by multiple

> users and he persists. I find that both tedious

> and misleading.

Calling people "tedious" and "spouting nonsense" is quite strong in my book.

[James Barber]

Hi LondonMix,

I have not suggested we want two new secondary schools in our area. Southwark needs two new secondary schools and both the Charter and Habs would seem ideal candidates in that they're now working with Southwark talking about providing new secondary schools. The two needed are one in East Dulwich and one in the north of the borough.

You've said lots of plans for new schools and expansions in the area - they came after the Harris Nunhead was proposed and approved. It troubles me that Southwark would prefer to spend council tax money providing things that the government has already allocated money for. We're talking millions of pounds.

But I've explained repeatedly how Southwark isn't reliable at predicting pupil numbers.

Spaces are escerbated by being in the worng places or needing cars to travel to - e.g. Dulwich Woods/Langbourne. Already families are travelling some distance or going to schools outside Southwark - Lewisham and Lambeth have even more pronounced primary school crisis. I've been told Southwark's model doesn't include fewer places outside the borough from being squeezed out there. equally many gaps between admissions for existing schools which need filling.

If you recall 2009 we were being told we had no crisis and had to open bulge classes with 6 weeks notice. So the modelling isn't reliable any more.

19,550m2 is the ideal amount of space as per Habs. This is more than Hatcham College or Charter currently has. I believe they could fit into 17,000m2 by going up one floor in any building constructed. Other new London schools have had much less but we all clearly want as much as possible.

[LondonMix]

HenryB, no one can predict how specific catchment areas will respond to the opening of a new school. The most popular schools will likely see no change and the least popular will likely grow the most.

Goodrich is most likely to expand as a result of the opening of ED Harris on the hospital site. Heber's tiny catchment should also expand as those are both the two closest schools.

As has been discussed Ivydale is expanding by two forms so its catchment should expand considerably.

Close to Nunhead, Bellenden School is expanding by one form.

Also, close to Nunhead, Dulwich Hamlet is opening a new free school called Belham (also in Bellenden Village area).

Dulwich Wood Primary school is expanding by one form which should help with might be a decent alternative for those in the Southern bit of Southwark (potentially better than the Dulwich Hospital site)

Judith Kerr Free school is opening near the Dulwich Village side of this area

Bessemer Grange is expanding by one form again to the West of Lordship lane.

Gloucester Primary school is also expanding by one form in Peckham.

Crawford Primary school in Camberwell is also expanding by one form

These are all NEW primary school places for Nunhead, Dulwich and Peckham / Camberwell.

Before these expansions, these areas are forecast to need between 8 and 10.5 new forms of entry. Excluding the proposed new Harris Nunhead Primary, there are plans underway to create 12 new forms. Yes, 1.5 new forms above the existing projected requirement excluding Harris Nunhead.

Most of the surplus places are in Dulwich which only needed a max of two new forms and is getting 4. Again, this is without the proposed Nunhead school.

Google Southwark council pupil planning and the source information published by the council will come up.

[LondonMix]

James, both secondary schools were campaigning to meet a singular need for one school in Dulwich based on the specific desires of Dulwich residents. Using that support to open another secondary school in the north of the borough isn't appropriate. The people who that school will serve should be consulted about what it is that their community needs. This isn't my opinion it is an essential part of how the free school system is designed.

Regarding the reliability of the forecasts for primary places, given that we are already creating 2 extra forms worth of places beyond the projections in Dulwich (equivalent to an entire extra school) and 1.5 forms for the general Peckham, Dulwich, Nunhead, Camberwell area, I think that buffer is sufficient. Building an entire additional school and compromising the secondary school is a waste of taxpayer money without specific evidence there is a need to do so.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Maybe the secondary should include their need for a swimming pool and sport grounds for its pupils and the community thus requiring more grounds ? Harris girls has a pool , why not Habs/Charter ?

Londonmix, I'm supportive of everything you have stated and it is tedious that we are going over old ground over and over again . We do not need another primary .

[henryb]

Thanks for the detailed response LondonMix. We live in the current black hole between Goodrich and Ivydale and have a child entering reception 2016. I guess we'll just have to wait have to see how it pans out - but certainly I know a few parents who think an additional primary school in the area is needed.

[simonethebeaver]

Habs certainly discussed the desirability of shared community facilities such as a pool with Southwark, and would be very open to something like that. Obviously something else that a primary on that site would put at risk of ever happening, if it ever can.

HenryB, I understand your worries. We're close to there too. I would wait and see what happens this year. Goodrich's catchment certainly went out on first offers, and the places eventually taken at Harris went AFTER that round of offers, so the actual Goodrich catchment for 2014 will be bigger still. 2015, when Harris is fully in the system, and the Belham school is open, will be interesting.