Petition re Dulwich Hospital site

[bonaome]

James Barber Wrote:

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> This is good news for both bids. Hopefully

> different sites for each will be found!

I thought there weren't any other sites? Where might these other sites be? Any thoughts you can share?

> The total site is 28,300m2.

> NHS are suggesting they need 7,000-9,000m2

28.3 - 9 = 19.3

> Secondary school would ideally be 19,500m2

28.3 - 9 - 19.5 = -0.2

That's more than the whole site used up already.

> 10,045m2 of floor space so a ground and 3

> storey building rather than 2 storey would have a

> land foot print of 2,550m2

Does land footprint mean the area taken up by the actual building? Harris Boys ED on that basis has a land footprint of 3,330m2 and doesn't seem overly large for a secondary school. Are you sure you could fit the secondary school on the space you've detailed?

> leaving 16,950m2 for out door space, etc

> and reducing the total space

> required to 18,600m2.

Sorry, I don't understand how it reduces the total space required to 18,600m2. I'm probably being a bit hard of understanding.

19.5 - 2.55 = 16.95, got that bit, but 18.6 - 2.55 = 16.05

Have I misunderstood? Or are you saying the outside space reduces to 16,050m2? I suppose that's enough for two football pitches. If you can get the school that small.

But then you'd like to see a primary built on that as well, correct?

> Primary school would ideally be 3,000m2.

Leaving 13,050m2 playing space for the secondary - this is about the same playing space as Heber has if you combine the playgrounds together.

> I think it perfectly feasible to house all three

> on this site without much imagination.

I think I disagree. But maybe I got all the numbers wrong.

> So the issue is one of whether any of them aren't

> needed or needed on a smaller scale. All will have

> further consultation.

I think you might be literally the only person who thinks this site is suitable for the Nunhead Primary.

> My biggest fear is that any change of government

> will see the health facilities go back onto the

> slower burner for another 20 years of delay

> scuppering any new school on the site.

But perhaps there are other sites available? See point 1.

[Penguin68]

Maybe if JB could pursuade the secondary school of choice to build up to 6 stories he could get another Harris primary in as well, hell a 10 story secondary and Harris could have their Nunhead, Clapham and Crystal Palace primaries nicely installed on the (Dulwich!) hospital site. Remember (caps intentional) WHAT HARRIS WANTS, HARRIS WILL GET.

[samstopit]

Incidentally, the petition now has 587 supporters. Which I think exceeds the population of your average primary school.

https://www.change.org/p/david-laws-mp-don-t-squeeze-two-schools-onto-the-dulwich-hospital-site

[buggie]

James Barber Wrote:

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> I'm surprised by Tessa's letter.

>

>

>

> Then I receive an email from a worried parent 100m

> from Ivydale who has been told by Southwark

> Council officials that in 2016 even with a new

> Ivydale school that due to siblings policy they

> stand little chance of getting into Ivydale. They

> were also told they should consider applying for

> school some of which are further than the Dulwich

> Hospital site from where they live.

> This is the same Southwark Council telling

> everyone their is no need for another primary

> school in Nunhead. and that the Dulwich Hospital

> site is too far away from Nunhead.

> You could not make this up.

No but you could look into it a bit further... Think this is the same forumite that asked about this on the Ivydale to expand thread http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,1142659,1442108#msg-1442108 and I was able to give her v accurate info from the school open morning that morning.

I do recall there bring talk of a Harris Nunhead when the original plans for Harris ED were being made, but that way precedes the news that Ivydale was to expand which everyone bar James seems to accept this negates the need for yet a

Harris primary claiming to be for Nunhead from a distance.

[James Barber]

Hi P68,

I'm clearly not suggesting tower blocks for schools. But The charter School and Habs have school building the height I've suggested. The same as the comp I went to.

Irony was the council leader did, when we first met him seeking his support, suggested a vertical school much to our shock. He wanted to leave plenty of space for new housing.

Hi boname,

Yes land footprint is the land buildings sit on.

No, Heber school sits on about 2,000m2 in its entirety.

Charter School is around 15,000m2. So the site would be much bigger than the charter or Habs secondary schools with or without sharing the site with a primary school.

[Dulwich Born And Bred]

Heber is tiny so I wouldn't use that as comparison .

[ed_pete]

Is anyone able to shed any light on what will happen to the existing Hospital buildings ? Does the proposed new health facility replace the existing hospital functions ? From the outside at least it appears that large amounts of the existing building aren't in use.

[James Barber]

Hi DB&B,

nor would I but someone else suggested it.

Hi ed_pete,

The NHS Southwark Clinical Commissioning Group - people who decide what will go where - stated at both of the last two Dulwich Community Council meetings they attended they expected a new build and they expected it to be built on the eastern side already cleared.

Haberdashers' Aske's have previously indicated that they'd like to keep as much as possible of the existing building. Having spoken with architects who know the buildings the central chataeu style building is worth preserving which was good to hear. The wings are generally single brick skins and would be very hard to keep. We also get into the daft situation of VAT being charged for changes to existing buildings but zero VAT for new builds. Hopefully this can be avoided via charitable body commissioning the schools and much of the existing fabric can be kept and added to. Hope that makes sense.

[bonaome]

DulwichBorn&Bred Wrote:

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> Heber is tiny so I wouldn't use that as comparison

Sorry, my mistake. Heber's OS space is indeed tiny c.1,600m2 - got my decimal in the wrong place. Apologies.

[ed_pete]

James - if the new health facility is intended to go on the cleared ground then why hasn't it been built yet ? Is it a simple case of the funding isn't in place or is there lot more to it ? (I imagine the latter). As regards preserving the existing buildings for the secondary school, personally I'd be against this. A building that was designed and built in the late 19th century as a hospital could only every function optimally as a school at a greater cost of building something specifically designed for the purpose. However I'm sure that there will be strong views on this subject when designs for the schools are commissioned.

[James Barber]

Hi ed_Pete,

The delay in NHS buildings going up is truly bizarre. We've tried pushing, we've organisation surveys. But NHS Property has to be one of the most backward public bodies going. It has been 22 years now of procastination.

I fear they may be stalling into the 2015 elections and then start a new cycle of thinking, consultations, etc.

I agree most of the hospital building would not be fit for purpose - and as single brick walls expensive to made fit for modern purposes. BUT the centra Chataeu has a large hall on the first floor and two wings. It would make a great focus for a new school and give it instant gravitas from day one. But we're a long way from detailed designs.

[Shanikus]

I disagree entirely that there is no need for another primary school. Those above, such as @Dulwichborn&bred should go to www.findaschool.info and understand the anxiety that the tiny catchment areas are causing us up at the top of Underhill Road. Based on the accurate results of this website, us lucky people who live in a beautiful area have had our luck shot down as our property has never been in an area where it is close enough to a schoool

With the birth rate in SE22 rising, the clamour for school places is only going to get worse, so revisit your comment and understand that the borderline area next to Lewisham and along Dulwich Common certainly needs another school.

[Otta]

Yes that's a well known "black spot", but do you really need another school all the way down there? You're further away than Nunhead.

[henryb]

It would not be ideal for either black spot but a school there would be better than none at all. It would have knock on effect on the catchment areas of other schools in the areas.

[bawdy-nan]

But isn't it the case that other expansions are already planned that more than fulfill any anticipated shortfall in Southwark in relation to primary places?

[henryb]

bawdy-nan Wrote:

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> But isn't it the case that other expansions are

> already planned that more than fulfill any

> anticipated shortfall in Southwark in relation to

> primary places?

Are you referring to the Ivydale expansion? The current black hole of primary provision extends all the way to Forest Hill Rd. To cover that Ivydale's catchment area would need to be 1300m. In 2013 the catchment area was 600m with a 3 class in-take. I can't see how the school will cover 4 times the area with one extra class.

What are the plans for the area at the top of Underhill Road? As I understand it none of the schools around there are expanding. I don't think Horniman can take any more bulge classes.

[Pugwash]

I worked in the Dulwich Hospital site until about 8 years ago when we were moved to a building in Camberwell. A new team were due to move in our vacated rooms (previously a ward) but were delayed for over a year as the structure was unsafe and the floor was about to collapse, I would say that apart from the ground floor, the rest of the building would need serious money to bring it up to safety standards of a school

[simonethebeaver]

The new Harris primary has eased the Goodrich catchment quite a bit, plus of course adding its own places to the mix. Horniman is heavily rumoured to be bulging this year. We live not far from you and are pretty confident of a school place, after years when this was not the case.

[bawdy-nan]

henryb Wrote:

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> > But isn't it the case that other expansions are

>

> Are you referring to the Ivydale expansion? The

> current black hole of primary provision extends

> all the way to Forest Hill Rd. To cover that

> Ivydale's catchment area would need to be 1300m.

> In 2013 the catchment area was 600m with a 3 class

> in-take. I can't see how the school will cover 4

> times the area with one extra class.

>

I'm basing that on the data from Southwark cited in Tessa Jowell's recent letter

http://www.tessajowell.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/CHAP0101901140379010100413.pdf - which includes Ivydale expansion and the new Harris on LL. Your argument about knock on effects if a futher Harris is opened at the hospital site (very far away from the black hole) work in the same way when applied to the already planned for additional places that take primary provision beyond what is required - which is to say, it should (and I realise, of course, that all of these stats are based on projections) ease the black hole problem up your neck of the woods.

[henryb]

According to Southwark 2014 Goodrich catchment was 500m and Ivydale 386m. That is still quite a gap.

Don't get me wrong I think the priority should be a secondary school for the site and it should have enough space. However if there is room for primary school as well it shouldn't be dismissed as the current situation of bulging already crowded schools and letting the catholic church take the slack doesn't seem very satisfactory to me. There is on-going population growth in London - demands on schools is only going to increase.

[henryb]

> Your argument about knock on effects if a

> futher Harris is opened at the hospital site (very

> far away from the black hole)

It is not that far. 900m or so. That is closer than some parents are sending their children.

[simonethebeaver]

Yes, but Henry, there are also now 60 additional places available at the new Harris Primary to be based at ED police station. Distance from that site will be the admissions criteria.

[henryb]

Ok well if other local parents are confident the Harris on LL will cover the gap then I won't rock the boat. The lack of provision took us by surprise in 2013.

[buggie]

Surely Dulwich Woods Primary (prev langbourne) is as close to the Underhill Rd/top of LL black spot, and is (or at least v recently was) undersubscribed & so counters the argument for another primary at the other end of ED. It's had lots of investment in recent years & have friends whose kids attend and sing its praises.

[James Barber]

Hi buggie,

It is great that Dulwich Woods Primary (aka Langnourne) is expanding from one form entry per year to two.

All the advice I've had from Southwark School Improvement Managers and other experts in the field is that they believe two form entry primary schools are the optimum in terms of schools results, performance and experience for pupils.

This school is lagging behind other local primary schools in its SAT results and this will make some families reticent to use it. It also isn't a very easy school to reach from SE22. It's either a very long circuitous walk, several buses or driving. So practically it is much essier for families from this admissions black hole to access other schools or Dulwich Hospital by public transport.

But with all the population forecasts for London - rising from current 8million residents to 10million. It is hard to imagine us having a surplus of school places even with the new schools in flgiht. If anything I fear further capacity problems.