Petition re Dulwich Hospital site

[henryb]

The LGA seems to think the problem is getting worse.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-30780126

[first mate]

I wonder will there be sufficient health facilities to serve this increase in the population? Where will those facilities go....?

[Otta]

henryb Wrote:

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> Don't get me wrong I think the priority should be

> a secondary school for the site and it should have

> enough space. However if there is room for primary

> school as well it shouldn't be dismissed

That is not at all unreasonable, but there is "room" and there is "room". It just seems a shame that a secondary which could be great may have to be a squeeze in order to fit a primary which would be better off elsewhere (like near the people that need it).

[henryb]

Have Haberdashers or Charter said how much land they would require for a school? If so has anyone suggested they get less than that?

[intexasatthe moment]

"I wonder will there be sufficient health facilities to serve this increase in the population? Where will those facilities go....?"

I share your concern firstmate . But I've found that raising such concerns in advance of a crisis is met with silence .

I campaigned against all of Southwark's secondary schools being taken out of l.a control and handed over to private enterprise . No one on here was interested ,few people on Lordship Lane were interested . Now we have multiple admission criteria ,a large chain which seems at best not to be advancing the public demand for a secondary school on the hospital site and causing concern by a low profile move to change the admissions policy at ED girls school .

[simonethebeaver]

I don't know the answer to your precise question so can't answer it. But the NHS have first call on the site and have set out how much space they want - any school would fit on to the remaining space. So the priority is the health facility above everything else.

[first mate]

I just wonder if this population surge has been factored into what will be needed health wise? The NHS is in chaos and apparently unable to cope, meanwhile we have GP surgeries closing and/or also unable to cope, so I wonder how it can be said with any accuracy that the NHS have decided what land is needed and what facilities will be necessary at the hospital site. I just don't think there is enough joined up thinking for that assertion to be made, although it is made, on a regular basis, by councillors on this forum.

ITATM

I agree the latest move by Harris girls is rather odd. What is the motivation? If there is, as alleged, such a shortage of spaces for local children then why open up your doors to children way beyond the local area? Harris is accruing a lot of land- I still wonder how absolutely secure the long-term use of that land for education purposes only is?

[James Barber]

Hi first mate,

I did share your concern. We've been told at Dulwich Community Council that the proposed new health building will have 4-5 times more floor space than that currently used at the hospital for the current services. So anticipate that we've been future proofed.

NHS spend a small fortune every year maintaining the Dulwich Hospital for the small amount of space actually used.

I have the impression these costs are paid centrally and clearly whoever in the NHS is paying for this has no strong desire to resolve things - I think we're in the 22nd year waiting for things to properly resolved.

[wulfhound]

This school is lagging behind other local primary schools in its SAT results and this will make some families reticent to use it. It also isn't a very easy school to reach from SE22. It's either a very long circuitous walk, several buses or driving. So practically it is much essier for families from this admissions black hole to access other schools or Dulwich Hospital by public transport.

A case for a cycle track through the woods, perhaps? Up Cox's Walk and on towards the existing track which comes out opposite Sydenham Hill station (don't know it's name, sorry). It's a bit far for primary children to walk each way daily, but a piece of cake by bike & with no traffic the whole way from Dulwich Common to Sydenham Hill station.

[first mate]

James, yes but if the comparison is with what the hospital does now and space actively utilised now it is meaningless since the services that used to be offered ( like x-Ray, halfway housing for elderly rehabilitation) are no longer. So I'm not at all convinced by your future-proofing take.

I don't know how long NHS property has had a role, not long I suspect as the organisation was set up under the coalition, was it not? What is more the sec of state has shareholder status in the company that is NHS Property - the architect of this company and its remit ( to make as much money as possible from NHS land) was this/your govt.

The 22 year farce you refer to is arguably more a reflection on constant reorganisation of the structure of the NHS from govt to govt and the tendency of all administrations to play politics with public services and resources.

[James Barber]

Hi first mate,

NHS Prioperry is just a reincarnation of the previous body hidden within the NHS.

The 22 year farce doesn't reflect well on anyone. I'm hopeful this time round things will actually happen.

[James Barber]

This after noon Dulwich councillors were emailed the attached.

Sadly no more detail yet but it is fabulous that after 22 years the coalition government is close to finalising new health facilities at the Dulwich Hospital site.

[Sue]

That's good news, but I hope they will be keeping the community garden for medicinal plants at the front of the existing hospital, which a lot of local people have put a lot of hard work into.

[bawdy-nan]

And what does this mean for any proposed new school ...

?We are tasked with selling land and buildings that healthcare commissioners have declared surplus for best value. All money generated from such sales is reinvested to improve primary care buildings nationwide.?

[James Barber]

Hi Sue,

I would expect they will but it is NHS Property involve.

Hi bawdy-nan,

I fear they price the land for residential use and the EFA won't be able to afford all the remaining land. At residential prices the spare land would be worth over ?60m.

I have asked Southwark Labour to zone the land to stop this but they're clear this isn't needed. I'm not a gambling man - it feels like they are gambling with local children's futures.

[first mate]

Let's not forget that NHS Property remit is set by the same lot that control the EFA - the current coalition govt. This govt has shareholder status in NHS Property. Don't think the blame game is as simple as James Barber is trying to paint it.

[James Barber]

Hi first mate,

Which is why I submitted a Right To Contest the land use last february which finally appears to have caused some traction. The Right To Contestwas introduced by Lib Dems in government and it was me as a Lib Dem councillor working with Cllr Rosie Shimell who submitted one.

Our Labour MP for 22 years even when a senior government minister didn't solve this problem - one of the largest in the constituency.

[first mate]

My understanding is that the hospital has to continue offering current services whilst the new facility is built on the cleared land. It might be considered foolish to rush into a sale of surplus land while the the new facility is erected and finessed and services in the current building are required. In terms of this land the health bit has to come first and we need to know that level of provision is going to be good for many years to come.

I understand the pressure to get on and sell land for a school but think that pressure on the gas also makes for great politics. Your govt has had 5 years to sort this out. It's obvious nothing will be done this side of the election, it's a lot of sound and fury.

[James Barber]

Hi First mate,

The flattened land area has been so for how many years? close to a decade. It took a decade to get to that point. From start ot finish this has been a classic example of Yes Minister. You can just hear Sir Humphrey - in the fullness of time minister, lets not be rash minister.

What was the point of having such a senior Labour minister at the heart of government for 13 years to only see part of the hospital flattened in all that time?

[first mate]

And the last five years James...what about that? Let's not pretend this is clear failure on the part of one party, as we've said before it's a prime example of the mess you get when govts of any hue play politics with public resources.

One reason why I am uneasy about unseemly haste to give Harris first dibs, especially now they seem to be on road to changing admissions policy so they are not serving local community.

[simonethebeaver]

First Mate, this document is quite interesting reading - the Southwark Clinical Commissioning Group's Project Initiation Document for the Health Centre. I imagine they are further on in thinking now, but the CCG's website probably has any more recent documents. It says that the clinical need is based on projections to 2026, and they imagine the facilities will be slightly underused at first. It also gives contact details for officers involved. I am not at all involved in this, and know very little about it, so I found this document quite useful!

http://www.southwarkccg.nhs.uk/news-and-publications/meeting-papers/governing-body/Governing%20Body%20Meeting%20Papers/ENC%20K%20-%20Dulwich%20Project%20Initiation%20Document.pdf

[first mate]

simonethebeaver,

Thanks for that, it does all sound very reassuring but quite vague too, though I've only scan read it.

The thing that jumped out at me was that it looks like the absolutely appalling MGMP might be one of a couple of GP Practices to be included as part of the service. If this is true any faith in these plans would be immediately and utterly undermined. MGMP is a shining example of an utterly failed model for a new kind of GP Practice. Its reputation is dire.

[BrandNewGuy]

I couldn't make it along to the Dulwich Community Council meeting last night, but we were promised an update on the future of the hospital site. Any news from anyone who attended?

[James Barber]

Yes, they said... outline planning permission for the super duper new health centre in about 3 motnhs time. in parallel 1 year of work getting business case through the NHS governance. 18-24 months ot build and open new health centre. So they estimate opening it around 17/18.

Number of ?25m to buuild it was mentioned which seemed very strange. suspect that full fit out with lots of clever whizzy kit rather than moving existing medical kit.

The spare 2/3rd of the site they're looking to sell at "market value". They soft marketted the site for housing with the likes of Berkely Homes so I have a real fear that this value will be so high that only a smaller part of the spare land can be afforded for new school/s.

Finally. How to fund it. Bizarrely selling 2/3rds of the site - will see the proceeds go centrally. Without that cashs the funding of the new health centre is a problem. So they're comsindering a PFI via an entity call LIFTT. P bloodly FI. Do we never learn! Apparently our health civil servants are so brilliant at knowing what we'll all need for over next 25 years that they can sign a PFI contractor precisely stating what they want over that period.

hope this helps. End of rant.

[nxjen]

"Finally. How to fund it. Bizarrely selling 2/3rds of the site - which was all funded by local public subscription"

Would be interested to see your references that the hospital was originally funded by public subscription. My understanding was that the land was bought in the 1880s by the St Saviour's Poor Law Union (this covered the area around Southwark Cathedral, Bankside and the Borough) to build the St Saviour's Workhouse Infirmary, so when it was built it was not intended to serve the local Dulwich community and was paid for out of the St Saviour's Poor Law rate. Charles Barry Junior, architect for the Dulwich Estate, was concerned the infirmary would affect property prices - plus ca change and all that!