Petition re Dulwich Hospital site

[Otta]

I live in Penge, my parents live in ED (as does my sister). My kids are 5 and 3, I don't know where I'll be living in another 5 years time, or even if school admissions will still be the same then (it's not that long ago that catchment areas didn't really exist for secondary schools and it was absolutely normal for kids to be getting a bus or two to school in another borough).

I don't expect James to respond to me, people were saying he should represent the feelings of his peeps (he should) I asked him directly if he would, and he said he had. What I am not doing is asking him to do anything for me.

I may not live in ED at the moment, but I remain interested in the area, and am very keen to know what will become of the site where I was born. (personally I'd like to see Haberdashers take it, just out of pure bias)

[DadOf4]

ed_pete Wrote:

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I would also prefer the a local councillor

> to spend his time responding to people from his

> ward rather than those who he doesn't represent.

but *you* don't live in East Dulwich, you live in Dulwich Village ward . Mr Barber isn't your councilor either :-)

Seriously:

I know you live much closer than Penge, but I think it demonstrates that, if we try and draw lines around who can/cannot participate in debate here, it will fail.

The East Dulwich community is made up of lots of people. Many live here, some dont (maybe they work here, maybe theyre about to live here,maybe they drive through here, maybe they own businesses here, maybe they used to live here). Whatever.

If somebody cares enough about this area to share their views in a constructive debate - then IMO they are part of this community

[BrandNewGuy]

DadOf4 Wrote:

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> ed_pete Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> but *you* don't live in East Dulwich, you live in

> Dulwich Village ward . Mr Barber isn't your

> councilor either :-)

ed_pete does live in East Dulwich. Check your ward boundaries. East Dulwich ward is only a part of East Dulwich.

[ed_pete]

I beg to differ I'm afraid. I never claimed that JB was my councillor however I do live in East Dulwich and I do live within a few hundred metres of the site. As I said I?m not trying to censure anyone but I do object to people trying to influence outcomes of something that doesn?t affect them. In a kind of odd way it?s bit like the West Lothian Question.

[James Barber]

Clearly any new school on the Dulwich Hospital site will affect everyone in a very wide area.

The hospital serves people, even in its reduced state, for some distance with the services it still provides and the services that are proposed to be provided.

As a ward councillor I'm always likely to feel a bit precious about things in the ward I represent but that's not a bad thing in moderation.

One of the things I found particularly attractive about Haberdasher's being the school provider the Steering GRoup chose - and from past experience worknig with them - is the very long term view they take. They would expect to provide a school and think in terms of hundreds of years.

So it is really important to get it right. But I can;t pretend I'm not impatient to have it built and opened.

Primary school. Clearly this isn't ideal on this site as well. I hope a sensible pragmatic solution is found ASAP. That might be the conultation finds it no longer is needed. Or it might mean a better site for it is found.

[DenmotherSmith]

> Primary school. Clearly this isn't ideal on this

> site as well. I hope a sensible pragmatic solution

> is found ASAP. That might be the conultation finds

> it no longer is needed. Or it might mean a better

> site for it is found.

James this sounds very promising, does it mean that despite Harris Primary Nunhead being 'approved' if the consultation decides there is insufficient need for primary places in the East dulwich/Nunhead area ( they seem to be needed more in the north of the borough) then the push for a primary school on the hospital site is unlikely? When will this this consultation take place?

I have to admit I am suspicious of Harris motives re primary on the hospital site. Are they the innocents in their far away croydon tower, who simply accidentally thumbed to the wrong page of the A-Z and called it Harris Nunhead, and then had the hospital site forced upon them..... or perhaps the threat of a large new co-ed secondary on the door step of their undersubscribe secondaries has them worried and plotting....

[James Barber]

Hi DenmotherSmith,

February is my understanding.

The govt Dept for Education don't trust free school applicants to find their own land/premises. So they employ the Educational Finance Agency to organise this on behave of free school applicants. Not the most dynamic organisations.

Before recognising the need, initating and leading the campaign for a secondary school on the hopsital site it was proposed for the first Harris primary school. The NHS property people blocked this such that another site was found. But Southwark council helpfully issued a letter allowing a primary school on the hopsital site. All this work has meant any evenutal secondary school will happen a year or two earleir than if we hadn't originally tried putting a primary school there.

Harris would prefer to build a primary school on their Girls Academy site on Homestall Road. The hopsital site isn't a first choice for them - hence why I think Southwark Council holds the chips in this.

[Penguin68]

Since the proposed new school is to address schooling needs in Nunhead (not Dulwich) I am not sure why everyone is being so precious about ED people having a priority say here - (I am an ED person, by the way). I would quite like to hear from those parents in Nunhead who anticipate having to schlepp across to the Dulwich Hospital to take their (really quite young) kids to school. Do they think this is a good option - or do they feel they are being leveraged into being part of Harris' empire building?

Is this about parents or is it about Harris? Harris would prefer to build a primary school on their Girls Academy site on Homestall Road. The hopsital site isn't a first choice for them - hence why I think Southwark Council holds the chips in this. - What do the Nunhead parents (who are the 'customers' theoretically, for all this, think? Do they matter at all in Harris' grand scheme of things (and the schemes of those who are cheerleaders for Harris)?

[first mate]

P68, Exactly. The message is that come what may Harris must have a site because that is what the process has decided. Quite apart from the fact that process can often be reversed (if enough effort is made)it does all seem to be about looking first at the requirements/needs of Harris and the community second- bizarre.

I would also add that isn't there an issue about the Homestall Road site and MOL land? If that is the case I would not wnat to see a precedent set for Harris acquiring and using MOL land, not when it is right next to Peckham Rye. However, might have misunderstood this.

[James Barber]

Hi first mate,

NO, I believe the system works with an applicant proving a need with sufficient families giving their support for a proposed free school. IF such an application is considered proved and is agreed THEN the EFA look for a site and take full ownership of finding a site they think meets the applicants needs. Once they think they've found a site a consultation takes place. This would be due in February and if families no longer think the site matches their needs then it goes back to looking fora new site. But this is consultation is primarily about families with children who need reception places in 2016 - delayed by a year due to problems finding a site.

Once a site in principle is agreed then a planning application will be submitted and then the whole community is able to give it's input.

Hope that helps explain a little more how the process works.

It's the same with the two secondary free school applications. When a site for them is proposed a consultation will take place. Assuming only one of them is offered the Dulwich Hospital spare land they will be the one consulting about using it.

[first mate]

Yes but that need was for Nunhead (since cancelled out by the expansion of Ivydale) not for ED. It looks like process is being cynically manipulated so that Harris can hold onto its 'right' to a parcel of land for a school that nobody wants- not in East Dulwich.

[intexasatthe moment]

Goodness I'm sick of James endlessly repeating that Southwark are singlehandedly blocking a new primary school being built on Homestall Rd .

Does he really think that if he says it often enough people will forget that national planning restrictions to protect greenbelt /MOL in London exist ? Is this the extent of his political spin ? Or maybe he thinks we're all stupid or too busy to do anything other than just swallow wholesale everything he says ? After all he's so brave and unselfish ,only being on this forum to help local residents with their problems .

The London Plan says this about MOL

3D.10 Metropolitan Open Land

The Mayor will and boroughs should maintain the protection of Metropolitan Open Land (MOL) from inappropriate development......Essential facilities for appropriate uses will only be acceptable where they do not have an adverse impact on the openness of MOL.

which does rather give the thumbs down to putting buildings on it .

Wikipedia explains "planning permission to carry it out cannot be granted by a London Borough acting alone, but requires the concurrence of the Mayor of London and the Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government."

which rather gives the lie to the idea that it's not just naughty old Southwark being intransigent .

[James Barber]

Hi ITATM,

The same council has repeatedly approved school building for private schools on MoL.

One rule for private schools another for state funded schools.

[henryb]

Hi James,

Out of interest - what is the MOL in question for the Homestall Rd site? Just a thought but if the issue for Harris at Homestall is the loss of sports facilities couldn?t Thames Water be approached to see if some of Nunhead Reservoir be used for that purpose. There is a golf club on Beechcroft Reservoir so presumably they can take some weight.

There is also the old nursery site next to Honor Oak Park station ? has that been considered at all?

I am a parent living in the south Peckham Rye ward. Our oldest child entered reception year in 2013 and we put down the 5 closest community schools and didn?t get in any. I would hate for any other parent to go through that situation as it was quite stressful.

[James Barber]

Hi henryb,

It sounds like you live in one of the two local primary school black hole areas. Very upsetting for families to experience.

The MOL area is where the current temporary portacabine are located. Before it was a patch of grass that I don't beleive was used for sports.

Ironically the Thames Water massive pumping station behind was built on MOL. I guess water is more critical than school palces. Thames Water are very clear that giving access would be a risk to water quality. But then a school could choose golf which I suspect the Acquarius gold club would love.

[henryb]

So be clear - are you saying Harris *would* be prepared to build on the site where the portacabins are but can't because it is classified as MOL?

[intexasatthe moment]

James 1 ITS NOT UP TO SOUTHWARK TO APPROVE BUILDING ON MOL

2 " Repeatedly " - do tell , I can only think of one instance and this involved one building ( not an entire school). As far as I understand it extensions can be approved provided sufficient open land remains.

3 In the past approval for extensions of school building on MOL at Homestall Rd have been put forward by Southwark and approved . So not one rule for state and another for private .

4 There is very limited land left at Homestall Rd to build without impacting on the "open space " requirement of MOL protection .

5 Approval for an extension for an educational building ( be it private or state ) is not the same thing as approval for a whole new school .

[henryb]

> Thames Water are

> very clear that giving access would be a risk to

> water quality.

Hi James thanks for your reply. On what grounds did they make the claim it would risk water quality? If a golf course doesn't risk water quality why would sports facilities for locals schools?

[henryb]

Hi intexasatthe moment,

From here

http://www.london.gov.uk/thelondonplan/policies/3d-10.jsp

It says

"Any alterations to the boundary of MOL should be undertaken by boroughs through the DPD process"

To me that sounds like Southwark should be the agency initiating the DPD process.

[Otta]

What used to happen on this patch of land before the portacabins?

[henryb]

I think this is the area.

[intexasatthe moment]

Yes Southwark can apply - for example they had to apply for the temporary buildings currently housing thetemp classrooms and before that for extensions to the secondary school . But they can't grant permission .

It's one thing to apply for a few temp classrooms or a Theatre or a Music room on MOL ,especially if like some of the private schools this is only going to take a small percentage of open land . It's another thing to apply for permission for a whole school on a space that has already been extended into .And where the head of the existing school is saying there isn't space .

Should Southwark ignore the national policy ,go against the policy and waste money putting an application in ?

So

[henryb]

intexasatthe moment Wrote:

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>

> Should Southwark ignore the national policy ,go

> against the policy and waste money putting an

> application in ?

Well, I guess, what I think they should do is talk to Harris, find out what their concerns are about building on the Homestall Rd site, see if those concerns can be alleviated by use of other land in the area. If they can be - then apply for a MOL change.

That way the hospital site would be free for use as a Secondary school and parents with young children in Peckham Rye/South Nunhead area get a primary school near where they live.

[James Barber]

hi ITATM,

Some boroughs have an exeption for school buildings.

Clearly Southwark made an exception for private school buildings in many cases and Thames Water.

[Otta]

I don't know the details of this area so have no opinion. But the head of an existing school saying there isn't space should be taken with a pinch of salt, as heads don't tend to be particularly altruistic outside of their little empire.

That's not to say that there is space, but I wouldn't just take the head's word for it.