Petition re Dulwich Hospital site

[samstopit]

There's a petition doing the rounds asking David Laws MP, Minister of State for Free Schools, not to put a primary school onto the Dulwich Hospital site. There's a lot of support for the Hospital site to be used for a secondary school and a health centre. The proposed primary (Harris Nunhead) would be co-located with the secondary school, meaning the Hospital site would be cramped, with less space for sport and outside space.

Petition here:

https://www.change.org/p/david-laws-mp-don-t-squeeze-two-schools-onto-the-dulwich-hospital-site

Here is a letter from Tessa Jowell MP to David Laws which gives the background:

http://www.tessajowell.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/CHAP0101901140379010100413.pdf

[mariababe]

Great - have signed and sent requests

[cazza]

have signed it too

[Monkey]

Signed!

[mrs.lotte]

I've signed.

A primary school on that site isn't needed and would be a waste of public money at the expense (in terms of money and space) of resources that are desperately needed.

[samstopit]

I've emailed my MP about this. Worth doing if you feel strongly - a Minister has to respond to an MP who writes to them about any issue.

Harriet Harman (Camberwell and Peckham) [email protected]

Tessa Jowell (Dulwich and West Norwood) [email protected]

Also a good idea to cc Peter John, leader of Southwark Council [email protected]

[first mate]

A decent health centre is vital, after all this is a hospital site. A necessary public resource should not be squeezed because of the overbearing ambitions of one private concern. Harris is everywhere and getting too powerful, it would seem. I thought Harris were opening a school at the old police station site....how many Harris' are we going to end up with and what happened to choice?

[LondonMix]

There is a Harris Primary opening at the old police station site. Based on the amount of signatures collected for that ED school, Harris appears to have convinced the DoE that there was demand from parents in Nunhead for another one there even though no campaign for a Nunhead primary was every conducted by Harris which is a pre-requisite. As there was a need for additional school places at the time in Nunhead, Harris applying to open a Nunhead primary was the only route they had to continue expanding in the area as you need parental support as well as a lack of places for your application to be successful.

However, since their application to the DoE was successful, Harris have been unable to find a location in Nunhead and are now suggesting that a primary school meant to satisfy a shortage in Nunhead should be located in ED (which now actually has a slight surplus of places following to opening of the Harris ED on the police site, Judith Kerr, and the expansion of Bessemer etc).

Worse yet, the need for a new Nunhead primary has been reduced significantly by the expansion of Ivydale.

So now, Harris are pushing to open a school serving Nunhead (which doesn't really need it) in East Dulwich (which certainly doesn't need it) on the hospital site which cannot accommodate it without severely negatively impacting on the facilities needed for the proposed secondary school which is very much needed to deal with the pending shortage of secondary school places in the area.

The entire thing is a travesty.

By the way, the shortage numbers are not my opinion but rather are based on pupil planning analysis from Southwark. Labor Councillors are working to stop this but they need our support to place adequate pressure on the government.

[kittysailing]

Backhander.com

[hpsaucey]

Signed. Love your post LondonMix - spot on!

HP

[James Barber]

This petition misses the problem pretty much entirely and risks our desperately needed secondary school applicastions beinf refused.

Southwark Council planning documents state they expect to see Health, new housing and possibly educational use at the Dulwuich Hospital site.

So far, the council have refused to withdraw that document and indicate they intend to change the zoning of Dulwich Hospital to solely health and education.

So the land prices will be based on housing development which would value the non health part around 18,000m2 or the perfect size for a secondary school at over ?60m. Which would mean only a portion would be bought for a new secondary school. Equally Southwark Council have so far refused to re zone 520 Lordship Lane for education use i.e. finding an alternative site for the second local Harris primary school - and where one of the two primary school black holes are for admissions.

Complaining to a minister that an approved scheme for a new free school should be dumped as not enough room for it and an as yet unapproved free school application is asking for the secondary school applications to be refused.

I would urge people to think very clearly what this petition is asking for and from whom it is asking.

Southwark council are responsible for land zoning NOT the governments educaton ministers.

[confusedbyitall]

"they intend to change the zoning of Dulwich Hospital to solely health and education."

"So the land prices will be based on housing development"

This does not make sense, if existing land is health and used going fwd for health and education why use a housing development calcualtion

Also james how could a petition requesting land to be used for a secondary school hinder an application for said school?

[Penguin68]

Harris are not the only fruit - or maybe, for some, they are.

A cursory reading of threads on this forum would suggest that issues to do with high quality local Health Care provision are very much non-trivial in ED, with surgeries inadequate, bad or closing.

The saga of Harris not being able to build their Primary on the police station site in time for the start of a school year (what schools open up for business in January?) do not give a warm feeling.

If you look at the full range of primary and secondary education places available, or already planned and agreed in and around Dulwich (East & West and Village) - crossing both private and state etc, provision, we will become educational central for SE London - do we necessarily want this at the expense of other things, particularly with the much argued absence of open recreation areas for the state provided schools and academies?

How does Dulwich place provision actually compare with Dulwich needs?

[mrs.lotte]

There is a significant and pressing need for a secondary school in East Dulwich (council projections bear this out) the hospital site is the only available land. There is no need for a further primary but yet another Harris has received approval. The concern is that an unwanted and uneccesary primary school once approved needs a home and the petition doesn't want that to be on the hospital site.

James your post makes no sense to me, to me it seeks to scaremonger (the petition runs the risk of losing a secondary) without any or any sensible suggestion as to how you reach that conclusion.

I recommend that you read the very many comments on the petition from the people you represent.

[James Barber]

Hi congusedbyitall,

Currently Southwark Council zoning of the Dulwich Hospital is for health, new housing and piossibly education. So the Dept of Health advisors will value all the non health land for residential housing. That's circa ?6M/1,800m2 at Christmas 2013 land values when 1,800m2 was sold for ?6M for a new primary school when the new Harris primary school had to price match a housing developer to obtain the land.

That would price sufficent land for a secondsty school at the hospital sites at ?65M. That is a higher land value than any UK school has taken place. This is more critical than any other factor.

The petition is saying don't support two schools on the site. One of those school is approved waiting fora site to be agreed. The other has been submitted and not approved. One way of resolving this is to reject the application for a new secndary school. It's clear the advise given so far to the ministers hasn;t always taken everything you and I would expect into account.

Hi P68,

When we asked every local provider about whether they would be interested in working with us to create new local schools in 2011 they were the only fruit in town - schools such as The Charter School head at that time were clear they weren't interested.

I entirely agree our GP's are wanting. Which wis why after 20 years of messing around we've been pushing for the Dulwich Hospital site to be resolved. It presents a great opportunity to fix things.

if you look at council officers reports, which have underestimated local need it will be tight with all the planned schools. Our state schools locally, with the exception now of Kingsdale, serve very small areas. So yes, we need more schools and the places they bring.

[samstopit]

Tessa Jowell has just posted on the family room thread thanking for all the correspondence on this. She will be passing it all on to David Laws.

Nearly 300 signatures on the petition.

James - I would second mrs lotte's point. Listen to your constituents.

[LondonMix]

I second Ms Lotte and Samstopit.

Suggesting that this petition be stopped is inappropriate. Nothing about the petition undermines the secondary school application and your suggestion that it does is totally unreasonable.

The zoning issue may be relevant but it does not in anyway mitigate the need for this petition to proctect the site for the secondary school.

[redjam]

James, the petition isn't just saying 'don't support two schools on the site'. It's also saying, very clearly, that ministers should support a secondary school and not a primary school.

[James Barber]

Unless Southwark Council amend their zoning of the hospital site we won't have either schools on the site or if we do they'll have tiny footprints and have to be very tall to make way for housing that is zoned for the site.

We have 250+ local families supporting primary schools and 750+ secondary schools. We need both.

The petition is effectively asking to cancel a junior school - as Southwark hasn't zoned any other land for educational use. The minister has no mechanism for this. But does have a mechanism to not approve a new free school application.

So yes I listen to residents but if I see a car crash coming I won't remain silent to say I told you so afterwards.

I've also had professional advice saying both schools could fit there but not ideal as it would mean less car parking for teachers and going up an extra storey for buildings. Things I'd like to avoid - especially when it's in Southwark Councils gift to avoid this.

Hence why the I think this is the wrong petition to help get the best local schools possible.

[confusedbyitall]

James - is the 250 for primary for ED or Nunhead?

Or is this the "extra" that allowed Harris to get a slice of the ED hospital site (for Nunhead) even though not needed

[James Barber]

I've never worked out why Harris gave a working name for a second Harris East Dulwich primary school Nunhead.I suspect this is because they have a Peckham and also now an East Dulwich primary schools and tried to find a distnctive name.

We know that a significant number of supporting parents live in Peckham Rye/Ivydale area - and another very large grouping from around 520 Lordship Lane area. When leading the council Lib Dems tried finding school places within a 1 miles radius but the national goal has always been 2 miles.

250+ was the support we gained for two primary schools. We always said we were going for two as the predicted gap was 215-235 reception children from the wider Dulwich area and we needed another two new schools on top of the Judith Kerr and some domino impacts from dulwich Woods, Bessemer and Belham.

[LondonMix]

James, you have previously stated that the hospital land would not be allocated to any school ahead of the secondary school application being finished. This is a matter of record in your previous posting history.

The application is therefore asking the DfE when the time comes and the secondary application has already been approved not to allocate any space to the primary school.

Habs themselves have come out and said that sharing is not viable if full facilities are to be maintained.

The is no rational argument for the Harris Nunhead to be located on that site and if you were being honest in your previous posts on the Family Room thread, there is absolutely no reason the petition as it currently reads should endanger the secondary school application.

James, why are you determined to convince your consituents to accept a Harris Nunhead Primary on the Dulwich Hospital despite the impact it will have on the facilities available to the secondary school and the surplus of primary school places already available in Dulwich following the new openings and expansions? Can you disclose if Harris make any financial contributions to you or your party?

[LondonMix]

James that most recent post is very dishonest. On other posts in the family room you clearly state that Harris were looking to open up a primary school in Nunhead and that there was need in Nunhead that justified this. Harris themselves sent a letter that was posted on the forum stating exactly that as well.

As you very well know there is no need for another primary school in the Dulwich area and there was never a campaign for two ED primaries. You are really pushing the bounds of personal integrity and what you are saying can very easily be disproven so you should be very careful as lots of people have been following these developments for months.

[first mate]

"Can you disclose if Harris make any financial contributions to you or your party?"

James,

Please answer London Mix' question?

[James Barber]

Hi LondonMix,

I don't believe the hospital land will be allocated to a primary school before a secondary school is refused or approved. But it is in officials heads. This is partly why I've not been chasing my Right to Contest in case it speeds up the wrong allocation.

But assuming one or both secondary free school application are approved, two problems arise.

First the land is zoned for housing so will be ridiculously expensive (?3,333/m2 as per former East Duwlich Police station) and only a small proportion of the site will be afforded for each secondary school. This would encourage a repeated of Harris East Dulwich Boys Academy higher density when we actually have the space for more land for a secondary school. So our ideal secondary school would need 19,550m2 and that would cost land alone while zoned for housing ?65M+.

Two. Every forecast by Southwark Council on pupil numbers have been wrong to varying degrees for decade. Until a few months ago they were crystal clear we did not and should not have a new East Dulwich secondary school. So I disagree - we do need a second Harris primary school. BUT Southwark could zone 520 Lordship Lane for educational use and we'd have no clash.

I have always said we wanted two primary schools. Their is even a thread on the forum about the second one.

And once we started receving support from families I said we have two primary school admissions holes - one around Homestall Road and the other effectively around 520 Lordship Lane. Ideally the second Harris primary school would be either built on the Harris East Dulwich Girls Academy site or 520 Lordship Lane.