Women only sessions at the Dulwich Leisure Centre pool

[Mark]

Why?

It doesn't seem fair that women can have their own swim for an hour and a half on Thursday evenings, so the entire evening is off limits to men. Or am I missing something?

The official line is "Fusion aims to make its services and facilities accessible to all including those from different ethnic backgrounds and religious beliefs. The female only environment is set up to cater for this."

I still don't think it's fair.

[Guest]

Get over it !

[Mark]

I'm more than willing to hear a decent, intellegent persuasive reason, but saying "get over it!" does not persuade.

[Guest]

Um, Mark, I think you ARE missing something. I think this is for women like Muslims who cannot expose certain parts of their body to men due to their religion i.e. not just for women without any particular religious convictions who want to swim without men there (although they could obviously use it too). Highly topical I think! Personally I don't have any problems with this at all. It's not harming anyone else - and they pay their taxes too!

[Guest]

If its to cater for minorities.. i.e. woman who dont want to expose their bodies for various reason. or any other minority, then it shuld not be at peak times.

Also . for balance. when is the men only session ??

[Guest]

I think this is an absolute effing nonsense. Thurs night the best night for me to go swimming yet I have to dash up and down the lanes (albeit that's probably doing me more good) to be out by 7pm. I wonder if there's a way of finding out how many users are there for religious reasons? If it's less than 5 then it's a waste of time in my opinion. Freedom of Information Act apply here perhaps?

[Guest]

Mark and Jamma, imagine that you had a fear of men (and were a woman), if you wished to swim you could not. If this fear had stemmed from an incident, such as rape, then it is perfectly understandable for these women not to want to go swimming with males around. Elderly women, also, may not wish to go swimming with men around - as they feel vulnerable or intimidated. Mothers may not see it as appropriate for their daughters to go swimming with men and boys (not a view i share but still legitamate). There may also be visits from a women's refuge, where they (obviously) do not wish to come into contact with women. Then, of course, there is the religion aspect.

If this problem still bothers you, why dont you think about asking for a 'Men Only Session'?

[Mark]

Hi Abby

Your argument would have more validity should those be the reasons for the 'women only session' on Thursday evening, however the reason given by Fusion is that the female only environment is set up to cater for ethnic backgrounds and religious beliefs. I must confess my lack of knowledge here but I would be curious to know the religious and ethnic details so if someone could let us know I would be grateful.

I'm not saying don't have women only sessions, I'm just assuming it's a majority (men and women) who would like to use the pool on Thursdays after work rather than a minority (women who only swim in 'women only sessions').

I don't want to ask for a 'men only session' as that would be a tit-for-tat argumentative response which is not conducive to a good outcome for all. To me, a good outcome would be for both sexes to be able to use the pool prime time Thursday, how about a women only session from 6-7pm then adult lane swim the rest of the evening?

Mark

[Guest]

Abby, are you mental? You should have women only sessions for women who are afraid of men? Why not have sessions in which the pool is drained for people who are afraid of water? That's an absolute nonsense. Men are not scary and the best way to discover that is by actually mixing with them.

The pool should be open to all at all times

And it could do with a renovation too.

[Guest]

Jamma,

That is not a very helpful post. I make no comment as to whether the session should be 7pm Thursday, but Abby and James make some reasonable points as to why women should want a woman-only swim. Your straw-man argument of "draining the pool" for people who are afraid of water is childish.

Tim

[Domitianus]

I completely agree that this policy is utterly unacceptable and the various spurious 'justifications' are absurd. Let me ask a simple question - what do you think the response would be if Fusion offered sessions exclusively for men who aren't comfortable with women, or who might, for example, feel that women are religiously 'unclean' at ceratin times of the month (a belief held by some religious traditions)? I am sure it would not be long before people were up in arms about such sex-discrimination.

Historically, gender-discrimination in favour of men was supported by 'explanations' and 'justifications' that are much more plausible than those offered in support of this form of discrimination, yet it was recognised that such excuses just weren't good enough! It is a while since I looked at it but I believe that sex discrimination legislation outlaws discrimination in provision of goods or services on the grounds of gender. Unless there is some specific opt-out clause in the legislation the Council may well be in breech of this legislation. Perhaps someone with more time on their hands than I have could make further enquiries and take this forward?

It disgusts me that my taxes are being used to provide services that facilitate discrimination on gender grounds and the matter should be addressed.

[Jamie]

Why are there so many angry men......? I'm at a loss.

Is there a logical arguement for why so many male obstetricians cut women open rather than supporting them giving birth naturally......answer according to Today's E.S.......Lawsuits. Is that logical or fair....no....

Is it something that people should spend more of there time thinking about and signing a petion about compared to a womens only swim lane....most definately.

Will any of you get angry about this....Probably not..

I think that any of the arguements regarding religious beliefs or the things set out by abby are perfectly logical, plausible and real reasons that women should have there own PEAK time.

You lot should be ashamed of yourselves not Fusion!

[Mark]

You lot should be ashamed of yourselves not Fusion!

Blimey, that's a bit harsh isn't it and I somehow expect Fusion aren't feeling ashamed. I can only speak for myself here but I'm not going to feel ashamed for saying things like "I'm not saying don't have women only sessions", "I don't want to ask for a 'men only session'" "a good outcome would be for both sexes to be able to use the pool prime time Thursday".

I asked, it didn't happen, I got over it because it doesn't bother me that much. Until someone brings into the discussion... obstetricians cutting women open and lawsuits (here I go...). WTF? I'm just trying to understand the reasons why it's at primetime Thursday, I understand the reasons for women-only sessions, I understand and agree with Abby's points and I agree that they should happen as there's obviously a requirement for them but more people would benefit and be happy and a little healthier if they moved it slightly. Please. I'm just trying to understand the 'business' logic behind it, why turn away the majority when there's a perfectly easy compromise, so if I may, a suggestion:

Change Thursday evening swimming session from:

18:00 - 19:00 Everyone

19:00 - 20:00 Women only

20:00 - 21:00 Women only

to

18:00 - 19:00 Women only

19:00 - 20:00 Everyone!

20:00 - 21:00 Everyone!

Anyway, like I said, it doesn't bother me anymore and I'm grateful we have a pool so close that we can all use, many people don't. Oh, and I don't agree with Domitianus and his way of doing things in this instance, it's just a pool session we're talking about here.

[beth]

I'd like to refer anyone interested in finding out more about the need to provide services for women to http://www.whywomen.org.uk My views on the matter is that while many women are comfortable swimming in a mixed environment, many are not. There could be many reasons for this - religious reasons being just one. For example, some women have had negative experience of being jeered at by blokes which means they don't feel that great about swimming in a mixed environment - and would probably not go swimming in mixed or peak times. In town, there is a whole spa, the Santuary which is women-only and which is quite popular but rather expensive! In terms of the times, you also have to take into consideration that many women are often tied to child-caring responsiblities (I'll need another thread to rant on about the unequal gender division of child-care and domestic labour!). Which means that often, women looking after kids can't get out of the house untill the kids are fed, bathed and put to bed and their partner has returned home so they can then go out. That's probably the rationale behind the later times for the women only session.

[beth]

p.s personally, I'd like to campaign for the blokes to be the ones to be primarily (not just occasionally to give their female partners a break) responsible for feeding, bathing and putting to bed of the kids while the women enjoy a peak time swim or maybe even a drink after work? That'd be a worthwhile campaign to sign up to!

[mockney piers]

> personally, I'd like to campaign for the

> blokes to be the ones to be primarily (not just

> occasionally to give their female partners a

> break) responsible for feeding, bathing and

> putting to bed of the kids while the women enjoy a

> peak time swim or maybe even a drink after work?

> That'd be a worthwhile campaign to sign up to!

Have you considered joining the labour party, this seems to fit in with the sort of ill thought out nonsense that appeals to them and gets enshrined in legislation.

Right I'm off to drink the housekeeping down the pub with the remote in one hand and the other scratching my balls while my good lady is chained to the sink and the hoover.

[beth]

Unfortunately, gender inequality is still widespread - there is still pay gap for men and women for example and, as many survey into childcare/domestic work have shown, it still tends to be the woman who take primarily responsiblity for childcare. As I know points out her husband arranges things all the time, work do's and social things with the assumption that the default position is that she'll be home to look after the kids. Whereas when she plans a night out, she really has to plan it with him and he needs to put it in his diary. Likewise, another friend I know get's grief from her work because she needs to leave bang on 5 to pick up the kid from nursery and also takes time off when the kid is sick - whereas the bloke rarely takes time off and never picks up the kid from nursery. Alot of women don't think feminism is for them untill they have kids and realise how many gender assumptions there are around childcare and how discrimination - direct and indirect affect their lives. However, I am now breaking one of the golden rules and am going off message from this thread so I'll stop now before the heavy hand of the administrator slaps me down!

[Mark]

Beth, I'm pretty sure the Administrator doesn't mind when topics naturally go off topic. Anyway, thanks for pointing out the difficulties and timings associated with childcare that make it hard for women to go at non-primetime, now I know (being an uncle hasn't taught me these things).

[mockney piers]

I don't think it's especially off message as the tenor of the thread wasn't really to do with swimming sessions but with gender discrimination.

I think your sample set of 2 is a little narrow in highlighting whatever it is you're trying to highlight however.

I know two of my friends who have wanted to be the most supportive fathers they can but have had access to their children blocked simply because the ex-partners could do it, and they were spiteful, hurtful harridans, but I don't let this colour my opinion of the millions upon millions of brilliant mums there are in this world (of which we have many shining examples on our own dear forum).

Yes of course there is plenty to be done regarding gender inequality, but as this thread was about reverse gender discrimination, it strikes me that you are doing your best to foster this sort of behaviour, tarring all men with some sort of selfish-laziness feather (taken from a dodo, damnably lazy birds who got their comeuppance) and hardly contributing anything positive or useful to the debate.

Aaaanyway, back to swimming....sploosh

And for the record I'm lovely, got any washing up you need doing ;)

[James]

I hear you Beth. But put simply, two wrongs don't make a right. I personally am tired of the nanny state intervening with a kind of enforced discrimination that is supposed to redress the balance re. our racist/sexist/homophobic/whatever past. The irony is that it actually ends up causing more division and resentment because it makes such huge glaring assumptions (as you just did) about what certain groups of people are like. Just for the record I am a single dad who bathes, feeds, puts to bed and reads a bedtime story to my son virtually every day that he stays with me. But because I am a man I am expected to do huge amounts of unpaid overtime at work (unlike certain female colleagues who are always out of the door at 5 on the dot). So as you can see, it cuts both ways.

Incidentally I am also gay. So perhaps I should really be out dancing on a podium to Kylie Minogue or something?

[Keith]

Here here. I'm feed up of loosing out just to be politically correct. If you have a problem with men seeing you in a bathing suit or vice virsa, don't go to a PUBLIC swimming baths. If you can't afford a private pool, get over it. Swimming is just one form of exercise.

[snorky]

To assume that women need to feel more secure in a female only environment like a pool is regressive, sexist deplorable thinking - has anyone read Greer or Dworkin here ? this merely reinforces the gender gap and cements the outdated ntion that Women are fragile and shy creatures, forever in the shadow of men. at worst it is a Cowardly and indefensible praxis, as best it is slightly galling.

With regatrd to religion - this is a choice people make - you want to follow whatever stone age imaginary rubbish you wish, but it is not longer a joke when others have to accomodate your blinkered beliefs.

This is a sloppy and lazy way to add to the equality mantra that local authorities seem to have adopted in recent years, yet does nothing to aid equality and may even exaggerate the problem.

apalling.

[snorky]

PS - I can spell, I just cant be bothered when in Ranting

[snorky]

"I'm ranting"

[clare]

don't think anyone of any sex swimming there at the moment.........my daughter's delighted. all school swimming lessons cacelled 'cos pool closed.

Why don't we lobby for hoody only swimming sessions? That'll keep our streets safe and give us something to rail against at the same time?