Has anyone tried the Alpha course?

[PeckhamRose]

Anyone notice that the Pilot who landed his plane in the Hudson, gave a speech about how it was all a matter of circumstance. He did not mention God once. I find that so interesting!

Specially since one of the people this pilot saved said at the time "everyone started praying".

I think the scariest thing I have ever experienced was being close to death when ill, and I only ever prayed as a child.

As an adult I just hope the doctors can save me.

So I wonder if you have ever been in anything so frightening and did you pray?

[Bizzy]

So Mark and Sean are rational human beings, they can neither see, hear, smell, taste nor touch God, therefore God is not there.

Sean ? life is too short to resent anything. Why is it that some Atheists are hell bent on getting back at others who don?t share their beliefs?

If you think about the size of the universe, the intricacies of the human body, you're eyes are better than any camera around, the miracle of childbirth, emotions we experience...the list goes on. Is it so bad to think that a higher being could have made this?

To those who state that God was dreamt up in mans mind - who do you think gave man that idea? ;-)

[Bellenden Belle]

Actually the last time I 'prayed' was when my mother was dying. I put prayed in inverted commas quite deliberately since it was not a case of speaking to God, or hoping for any souls to be saved or circumstances changed, but rather the repetitive familiar words of a rosary, said alongside others, was both familiar and comforting and unifying.

Rather like meditation, I rather like the rituals of religion and think in difficult times it is useful to be able to lean on such methods and comforts. But I'm afraid I was still under no illusion that I was being heard or that any miracle lay ahead.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Bizzy

As I hope anyone who knows me will testify, I'm not big on resentment. I have a very low level of tolerance however for any form of irrationality. I heartily condemn, for example, people (and I include my family in this category) who bemoan high levels of taxation, yet can't actually tell me what level of tax they are paying. Or how they compare with other countries. Is that relevant? Well yes it is - if I can't expect people to be able to conduct basic conversation on something that matters each and every day and touches on every part of our lives, then dealing with people who want to say how important their chosen fiction is, is really really bothersome

I can't see, hear, smell, taste nor touch concepts such as love. Or trust. But I cherish them and hold them to be true. I am not some arch-scientist who deals only with matter.

What I resent isn't really your chosen fiction. If you want to believe in what you believe in and rationalise it the way you do, more power to you. But it's not a level playing field. Faith - be it islam, christianity, judaism - whatever - bedevils the world globally - men with beards who condemn others and tell them what to do. if it's Catholics preaching against abortion, Islamicists preaching female circumcision - whatever - it all stems from someone holding a holy book and saying "hfkkgfkgksg GOD ilgiseghieg YOU BAD IF dskalhkshgkhgk ". And these are not, as one would hope the deranged preachings of the loony minority. But enshrined in the power structures of the country where the particular faith holds sway

Saying "ahh but someone who is an aetheist blew up Monument X" is not ascribable to a faith. Aethiests are not a shared common belief system. But there is not a single positive attribute which religion claims, which is not shared by any rational human being. The 10 commandments?? All enshrined in law prior to Jesus. Human beings already possess this innate treatment of others. If you take god or allah out of any equation, the human reality remains a truism.

You say religion taught you to think for yourself. yet to complain when people who actually think for themselves "pick holes" in your arguments. You were obviously unhappy and have found some peace in faith. I don't really begrudge you that

But again I say to you - when you say -

"If you think about the size of the universe, the intricacies of the human body, you're eyes are better than any camera around, the miracle of childbirth, emotions we experience...the list goes on. Is it so bad to think that a higher being could have made this?"

Is it so bad? yes - it's downright weird - who would create such a thing, leave us to our own devices, judge us - and WHY would they? It's dark outside.. whistle if you need to - but it doesn't mean anything

[????]

Sean I don't believe in god, for many of the reasons you have eloquently posted but....I think secularism is on thin ground when arguing about the evilness of religion, when we're just left with 'rationalism' we get, in the wrong hands, Hitler's Germany, Stalin's Russia, Mao's China and Pol Pot's cambodia.....it is a load of old baloney, but its moral codes perhaps temper some of the obscenities of man standing and thinking by himself...

I'm still an existentialist :-S

[Mark]

Bizzy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> To those who state that God was dreamt up in mans mind - who do you think gave man that idea? ;-)

Man

[SeanMacGabhann]

The three, no-less-true-despite-being-obvious, examples you quote quids were not operating under the banner of secularism nor aethism - they were just ... well you can use your own adjective here.

But nor were they operating in a vacuum. Rome for example was all too aware of Hitler's operations. It's inaction tells us all we need to know. I remember growing up in Ireland and hearing stories of local churches blessing guns bound for Germany. And whilst the Catholic church found time to ban Lady Chatterly et al, Mein Kampf remained un-banned. If I focus on catholocism, be assured it is only because that is my background and may every little black-hearted christian brother who beat me with a lead-filled leather strap find forgiveness and redemption in... oh dear me no. There is no redemption. But really, if I say catholocism, you can insert the religion of your choice Bizzy. I have no fear* of insulting Islam just as much

* I say no fear. Clearly many of "the faith" are more deranged than others and would happily have me and my family. And probably all those who read this forum. It doesn't make them right.

I should also point out that in fairness, some of the christian brothers who taught me were genuinely sound, Good Guys. Interestingly, of the 3 Good Guys, 1 commited suicide and 2 left the brotherhood/catholic church. Again, make your own judgements

[Bizzy]

Sean

If you have a problem in dealing with irrational thoughts, YOU have to sort it out as you're going to meet many more people who may not necessarily be irrational but to you they are.

Don't call it fiction. It's my beliefs, have some respect. Don't dismiss it when you don't know the half of it. I'm glad you have people that can vouch for you - do you really need your friends to tell you that? I would have taken your word for it.

I?m not talking for all religions here. You make it sound like all Sunday sermons in church across the country are preaching hatred. Where do you get these ideas from?

Saying "ahh but someone who is an aetheist blew up Monument X" is not ascribable to a faith. Aethiests are not a shared common belief system - you could say the same about the denominations in Christianity.

You say religion taught you to think for yourself. yet to complain when people who actually think for themselves "pick holes" in your arguments. I wasn't complaining about anything! Stop thinking what you want to see. I was making a statement about people looking to pick holes - at a time when I thought a few posters were taking the mick.

You were obviously unhappy and have found some peace in faith. I don't really begrudge you that What makes you think I was unhappy? Maybe I was happy, but going nowhere. Have you already painted a picture of me as some kind of nutcase that found religion? You?re putting yourself on a pedestal and thinking a little too rationally.

Is it so bad? yes - it's downright weird - who would create such a thing, leave us to our own devices, judge us - and WHY would they? It's dark outside.. whistle if you need to - but it doesn't mean anything

So what is your theory and how humans came about? If you don't have a theory, your irrational sensors will go wild? You go for Darwins theory? I don?t get your point on that one.

Why did you decide to blow your horn now? Were my irrational thoughts going unpunished?

[Jeremy]

Quids... nobody is saying that moral codes aren't important, but those moral codes don't have to come from mythical sources (in fact they absolutely should not). Humanism teaches people to derive their morals from experiences and empathy (not that I necesarily wish to classify myself as a humanist, or anything else). In fact, Hitler was a Christian - and I dare say he was following his own "interpretation" of the faith.

pk... "the point is that you choose the bits that you believe to be right". Well that's the problem. How do you know which bits are right? Christians would have us believe that the bible provides us with some sort of moral framework, a code of conduct if you will. But if you are selective, then that proves beyond doubt that you are using your pre-existing morals, to decide which bits you subscribe to. Therefore the book is totally, 100% useless.

Bizzy... "You go for Darwins theory? I don?t get your point on that one". Are you saying that you believe in creationism over evolution? There is overwhelming evidence to support evolution, even Rowan William acknowledges this (and tries to fit his religious beliefs into that context). Creationism is an ancient myth... it's one thing when grown adults still choose to believe it, but when it is seriously suggested that it is taught in schools as an alternative to evolution, then something is seriously wrong. We can't hold back the teaching of science (and therefore the advance of the human race) by teaching myths as if they were fact!

[Bizzy]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The three, no-less-true-despite-being-obvious,

> examples you quote quids were not operating under

> the banner of secularism nor aethism - they were

> just ... well you can use your own adjective

> here.

>

> But nor were they operating in a vacuum. Rome for

> example was all too aware of Hitler's operations.

> It's inaction tells us all we need to know. I

> remember growing up in Ireland and hearing stories

> of local churches blessing guns bound for Germany.

> And whilst the Catholic church found time to ban

> Lady Chatterly et al, Mein Kampf remained

> un-banned. If I focus on catholocism, be assured

> it is only because that is my background and may

> every little black-hearted christian brother who

> beat me with a lead-filled leather strap find

> forgiveness and redemption in... oh dear me no.

> There is no redemption. But really, if I say

> catholocism, you can insert the religion of your

> choice Bizzy. I have no fear* of insulting Islam

> just as much

>

> * I say no fear. Clearly many of "the faith" are

> more deranged than others and would happily have

> me and my family. And probably all those who read

> this forum. It doesn't make them right.

>

> I should also point out that in fairness, some of

> the christian brothers who taught me were

> genuinely sound, Good Guys. Interestingly, of the

> 3 Good Guys, 1 commited suicide and 2 left the

> brotherhood/catholic church. Again, make your own

> judgements

Sounds like you have something against the Catholic Church, as is the case with most of the anti religion posters here. It may suprise you but I also disagree with some of the Catholic ideas.

Jeremy,

I just want to make this clear. Not all Christians pick and choose what they want to believe. It's a common thing and it does happen, but if this is the only thing you have against Religion, then you need to open your ears more and try something new.

[PeckhamRose]

"Why is it that some Atheists are hell bent on getting back at others who don?t share their beliefs? "

Ahhahahahhahhhahaha

pot kettle black

Not having a God I can't say he's going to send you to hell!

[SeanMacGabhann]

Nope, words fail me on this one

Don't?? As in "thou shalt not"? Am I being commanded? Bizzy I'm not denying you your beliefs. Have them. May they serve you well. But don't assume you are immune from criticism for holding them. You can't command respect. Respect is earned. You have feelings, I get it. I have no innate wish to hurt those feelings. I don't know you from Ad.. well anyone. But as long as you proclaim your beliefs I have the exact same right to repudiate them. And I don't command anyone to respect me for it. People can dislike me as they wish..

how and when did I do this? I have been to a few fire and brimstone sermons, but most of the ones I have heard are just dull repetitious "be nice to one another" stuff. Nothing wrong with that is there? I just don't need to go to mass to hear it. I Already Get It

Not really. Y'all read from the same book. Interpret it differently maybe but a "common belief system" it surely is

Sounds like the dictionary definition of unhappy to me. But again, if you are happier now, good for you. But your chosen belief system, just because it makes you happy, ain't necessarily true

I'm REQUIRED to have a theory? Well if someone said a giant turtle wandered past the planet earth and dropped a few passengers and we went from there.. it's a theory I guess. I could ascribe to it. But why would I? I'd rather go "gee I dunno. and I don't much care". Biology and evolution is so infinitely fascinating and wonderful and amazing.. it doesn't NEED an explanation. It just is...

You think I'm punishing you?? Disagreement = punishment??

[Jeremy]

Bizzy Wrote:

> I just want to make this clear. Not all Christians

> pick and choose what they want to believe. It's a

> common thing and it does happen, but if this is

> the only thing you have against Religion, then you

> need to open your ears more and try something new.

Very true. So do you pick and choose, or do you take the entire bible literally? Are there any bits in there which you think are morally dubious... any at all??

[Mick Mac]

Mark Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Bizzy Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

>

> > To those who state that God was dreamt up in

> mans mind - who do you think gave man that idea?

> ;-)

>

> Man

Mark - I have only just read this one - priceless humour. Nice one.

I personally believe that thunder led to all this religious nonsense - a simple idea - but many moons ago people could not understand thunder/storms/floods/natural disasters - these were attributed to an external force who was unhappy - hence a god was invented in wise peoples minds - they could use this natural weather as a way of making badly behaved elements behave - hence thunder was seen as a punishment from an angry third party, this third party is still with us and plays far too big a role in our everyday lives. We need people to understand that there is no "next life" reward for good behaviour, the reward for being a moral person is here and now, and if you are good you become a respected person, someone whom people trust in.

To believe in anything else is probably a waste of time and an unnecesary stress in a stressful world - hence the athiest bus - "stop worrying" means don't worry about what will happen in the afterlife - because there is no second life.

[Sarah J.]

I was told to check this debate out...my goodness....the word 'raging' comes to mind.

I'm a fence sitter..... I do think there's something out there bigger than all of us, but in the religion/scientific game, I haven't decided what team I'm batting for yet; to be honest, I don't know if I'll ever choose a side. Why should I have to? Why can't we just take what we like from both sides of the story, and believe in that? Well, I guess we can.

Obviously, everyone has a right to believe what they want. One thing I know, is that as wonderful as religion is for some people, and as much joy as it brings to their lives, it's also brought destruction, desolation and misery to the lives of thousands for centuries. The biggest wars in the world have been fought for "god and country".

That aside, I'm enjoying reading all these posts!

[Bizzy]

Sean,

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this ;-). I understand the position you're in, but it does sound like you're putting someone down for having faith in God. If someone has a belief in anything, you don't throw it out the window and label it fiction because it's lacking rationality in your narrow view, it needs an element of tact. You know full well I wasn't commanding you, and then you go and ridicule me by quoting from the Bible, was that really necessary? I give respect to everyone?s beliefs whether I know them or not, whether I think they?re right or wrong, of course they can lose my respect but that?s a different matter.

Jeremy,

I can give you the short answer and that is no, I don't think there is anything morally dubious in the Bible. Once again I can't explain why without being accused of going into preaching mode and offend anyone, even though it's not my intention to preach but rather educate.

Sarah J

I think it's wonderful that we live in a country where we are free to practice any religion, or not as the case may be and also debate about them.

[TillieTrotter]

Ace last post there Mr Mac, very impressed.(tu)

[PeckhamRose]

Oi Tilly Trotter! I wrote that back on page 2 or somewhere!

Anyhow, I suppose another question to LegalEagle is - since you are in the business of LAW, proving stuff with evidence, what are you doing at the Alpha Course?

[TillieTrotter]

Sorry to have passed you over Miss Rose. Are we talking about the same post? Sean's last one is the one that impressed me.

[Jeremy]

Bizzy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I can give you the short answer and that is no, I

> don't think there is anything morally dubious in

> the Bible.

Can we elaborate a little? To take the well known example of Noah's Ark... is this a story you take literally or metaphorically? Either way, do you believe that god was right to kill almost everyone on the planet (including all the presumably innocent animals) for committing such horrific crimes as "sorcery"? Do you believe that Noah then did the right thing by offering the sacrifice of an animal after the flood (maybe... God certainly seemed pleased with it).

I guess I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from with this. Does anyone really treat the bible as a moral reference point? I'm sure plenty of tales in there teach some valid values, but any well-balanced person would/should immediately recoil at some of the stuff in there.

[snorky]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> >

> Nope, words fail me on this one

>

>

> Don't?? As in "thou shalt not"? Am I being

> commanded? Bizzy I'm not denying you your beliefs.

> Have them. May they serve you well. But don't

> assume you are immune from criticism for holding

> them. You can't command respect. Respect is

> earned. You have feelings, I get it. I have no

> innate wish to hurt those feelings. I don't know

> you from Ad.. well anyone. But as long as you

> proclaim your beliefs I have the exact same right

> to repudiate them. And I don't command anyone to

> respect me for it. People can dislike me as they

> wish..

>

>

>

> how and when did I do this? I have been to a few

> fire and brimstone sermons, but most of the ones I

> have heard are just dull repetitious "be nice to

> one another" stuff. Nothing wrong with that is

> there? I just don't need to go to mass to hear it.

> I Already Get It

>

>

>

> Not really. Y'all read from the same book.

> Interpret it differently maybe but a "common

> belief system" it surely is

>

>

>

> Sounds like the dictionary definition of unhappy

> to me. But again, if you are happier now, good for

> you. But your chosen belief system, just because

> it makes you happy, ain't necessarily true

>

>

>

> I'm REQUIRED to have a theory? Well if someone

> said a giant turtle wandered past the planet earth

> and dropped a few passengers and we went from

> there.. it's a theory I guess. I could ascribe to

> it. But why would I? I'd rather go "gee I dunno.

> and I don't much care". Biology and evolution is

> so infinitely fascinating and wonderful and

> amazing.. it doesn't NEED an explanation. It just

> is...

>

>

> You think I'm punishing you?? Disagreement =

> punishment??

I admire your restraint Mr Sean

It does indeed show tolerance that we debate this subject to such lengths and rarely get infuraited with the absurdity of it all. I cant think of any other subject where the purveyors of such ill founded nonsense get treated with such kindness and handled with kid gloves.

[SeanMacGabhann]

why thank you m'aaam. It will make up for the one that annoyed you then.

Apart from the usual frustration on both sides that the other lot can't see their point, I am finding the conversation itself not bad. Fair play to Bizzy for at least continuing to address most questions. Well, sort of ;-)

[TillieTrotter]

I agree, I'm thoroughly enjoying this debate. For once, it hasn't descended into a personal slanging match but has kept level headed and interesting.

As for the one that annoyed me...I've said my piece and that'll do me;-)

[SeanMacGabhann]

I had to be restrained snorks, I had Lady MacGabhann over my shoulder vetting me. She could tell that I was in one of those moods...

But the fact is some of the people I hold dear have their leanings so it would ill-suit me to "do one". Plus people tend to listen more if one is not ranting.

[Bizzy]

Note to all: Please don?t read first paragraph if you don?t like Bible talk. I hope this causes no offence.

Jeremy,

In reference to Noah's Ark - I take it literally. God, was unhappy, and therefore unleashed his wrath upon the world. This was before Jesus paid the ultimate price, therefore once you had sinned, you had sinned. If you have read the gospels, or seen the Passion of Christ, you would have seen that Jesus could have done many things to get out of his predicament. Yet Jesus knew that he had to pay the price, so that sinners could repent and ask for forgiveness, in effect gaining choice of free will. We are human beings, and are always going to make mistakes, it?s human nature but again, we have choice of free will. This stems from the story of Adam and Eve, having been tricked into eating from the tree of knowledge, sin entering into the world.

How would you define a well balanced individual?

Sean,

I thought your post was a rant, though I thoroughly agree that shouting abuse and slanging gets people nowhere. I did miss your point on your theory of how we became. Being a rational surely means you have a starting point, and work your way logically backwards / forwards to a solution? As you have stated you have a low tolerance for irrationality, would you not be doing yourself injustice by leaving something as "it just is??

Also, my point about being happy and going nowhere. Many people are happy without religion; they have money, family, drugs, cars - material possessions. With Christianity, I realised life wasn't just about women, sex, money, Aston Martins, private schooling etc. You're born into this world with nothing, you will leave with nothing.