Has anyone tried the Alpha course?

[dulwichmum]

Well, how convenient for you that those who have been abused as children by adults in a position of trust and authority, are statistically more likely to end up disengaged with society and on the wrong side of the law.

Being an "ex con" as you so nicely put it, does not mean that your word is worth nothing. How very convenient for the Roman Catholic Church that there are those in its congregation who seem to believe it does. Wouldn't it be just frightful if that income stream were to dry up.

You do know that Jesus spent some time inside sweetie, don't you?

[pk]

dulwichmum Wrote:

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> Well, how convenient for you that those who have

> been abused as children by adults in a position of

> trust and authority, are statistically more likely

> to end up disengaged with society and on the wrong

> side of the law.

>

> Being an "ex con" as you so nicely put it, does

> not mean that your word is worth nothing. How

> very convenient for the Roman Catholic Church that

> there are those in its congregation who seem to

> believe it does. Wouldn't it be just frightful if

> that income stream were to dry up.

>

> You do know that Jesus spent some time inside

> sweetie, don't you?

i find this kind of smug illogical and arrogant argument really unhelpful - because i choose not to make sweeping generalisations without knowledge of the facts and i don't change this view in reliance on a couple of links you post (quoting unnamed sources) you get carried away with yourself and imply things that i've not even hinted at - whatever

for similar reasons (about fact and evidence) i am unconvinced by the words of jesus

[dulwichmum]

Oh look!

The pope wants to beatify a Nazi now.

Dear me, whatever next.

[pk]

dulwichmum Wrote:

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> Oh look!

>

> The pope wants to beatify a Nazi now.

>

> Dear me, whatever next.

nothing in that article suggests that he was nazi - it seems that the perspective of some jews is that he failed adequately to speak out but they don't seem to be suggesting that he was himself a nazi - this is a sensational conclusion that you've chosen to draw yourself (i am guessing without caring too much about the facts)

again, i don't know the facts so i'd rather not comment on whether he was a nazi or not, but to me 'nazi-era' does not equal nazi

anyway, can't be bothered trying to justify logic to the illogical

to get back to the theme of this thread - i'd be interested to here how the alpha course experience progresses, so please keep us informed

[Mark]

20 years ago medical research showed that condoms are effective in stopping the aids virus: http://www.popline.org/docs/0716/034014.html

Last year the Catholic church said that condoms let through the aids virus and the only answer is to abstain from casual sex http://catholicactionuk.blogspot.com/2008/07/vatican-no-condoms-to-curb-aids.html

The church does many good things but to me that is an example of a step backwards, all the hard work done by medical research and the education of third world people undone by the church. Or a church, or a god, or the word of god or whatever it's packaged as.

[dulwichmum]

Oh Mark, thank God you are here! I was almost convinced by pk's articulate and well informed arguement. I was about to head off for Sunday mass (sigh).

[pk]

for the record, i also agree that the stance on the use of condoms is entirely unrealistic (in terms of expecting people to abstain) and therefore is not good in terms of slowing the spread of HIV, fortunately many catholics choose not to follow the advice (but unfortunately many also follow it)

[Jeremy]

What's the point of following a religion/church if you're going to pick and choose what to believe?

[pk]

Jeremy Wrote:

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> What's the point of following a religion/church if

> you're going to pick and choose what to believe?

the point is that you choose the bits that you believe to be right, rather than following blindly and without questioning

to me this sounds sensible and over time i'm sure assists religions to develop (albeit not so that they actually keep up with the world around them)

[SeanMacGabhann]

I think what God MEANT to say was....

never been that confident meself

[Mick Mac]

:) Very good Sean. Not sure his son Jaysus was that confident either and towards the end of his life became rather paranoid (too much Canan wine perhaps) and was suspicious of some of his friends, with good reason as it turned out.

[mockney piers]

Surely a religion must be divinely mandated, else it's basically just philosophy isn't it? And picking and choosing what God wants is just presuming to know the divine, which by its very definition is utterly unknowable.

Well, I say that, but I'll have to chat to Bizzy more as I'm impressed by how much (s)he know's what God wants and likes, are you related to Dubya perchance? ;-)

As for this thread, atheist-and-believers-in-the-other-one-just-doesn't-get-it-don't-meet-in-the-middle-shock

[Bizzy]

Mockney piers,

No,not related to Dubya >:D<

No need to be impressed, it?s laid out clearly in the Bible as to what pleases/displeases God.

Dulwichmum,

There are plenty of sick people everywhere. If an Atheist did something despicable, I wouldn't class anyone without religion as being tolerant of what this one other Atheist has done. When you say the RC Church or Christianity in general, you are in effect classing a large group of people by what a few of them have done.

Mark

So because the statistics mentioned in the *blogspot* are from a Catholic source, they must be wrong? If you go about not wanting to even open your ears to the fact that there may be a God, you end up constantly looking for flaws etc. All your posts seem to iterate the same thing.

[mockney piers]

So if it's clearly laid out in the bible then do you agree that these are divine instructions literally in black & white and there can't be any room for interpretation?

[Bizzy]

No I don't agree. Some of these instructions are not literal and require some interpretation. The beauty of the Bible is some people read into these things and come out with some foolish stuff. I'll admit this happens in Churches today.

I'm not keen on theologists, researchers, and authors reading the Bible with a sceptical view looking for answers(Dan Brown comes to mind) because you?re always going to get some misconstrued outcome at the end of it. It?s just a waste of their time. It's very hard to explain what I mean without offending anyone.

[Marmora Man]

Bizzy,

In the words of the bus (a particularly reliable source of guidance)

"There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life." I would excise the word "probably" but that's mater of choice.

[Bizzy]

Marmora Man,

The bus slogan campaign was built up on the premise that people of religion constantly worry and don't enjoy life because they are led by religion. I can honestly say, Christianity teaches me not to worry, and I certainly do enjoy life ;-)

[Marmora Man]

er??? A strange reading of the campaign. The bus campaign was funded by rational atheists like myself to counter overly evangelical christian messages - not to give christians peace of mind.

Nevertheless I'm glad you enjoy life.

[Bizzy]

Looks like your campaign failed then >:D<

Sorry, you set yourself up for that one...;-)

[microbite]

Wow, this thread has grown quite a lot since I last looked ha! As many for religion and Jesus as there are against it all.

PK - The points about quite a few of the Catholic Priests being paedos, and the Vatican and fellow priests etc. basically turning a blind eye to this major sin and covering their @rses was interesting, it is quite well known and documented. PK if you choose to bury your head in the sand about this by saying it was only a "minority" of priests within the Catholic faith who abused their powers of trust, so that you can continue practising the religion of your choice being preached to by people who cover up/ignore/sweep under the mat incidents like this (choose whichever)then that is fine and entirely your choice, but I have to say I side with Dulwich Mum on this one, I'm not saying that this doesn't happen in other faiths either, it does way too much abuse of power on the vulnerable, but the whole thing that turned me off of Catholicism was basically the constant guilt trips you were given, the hypocrisy displayed, and the fact that I could cold bloodedly go out shoot 20 people a week, but as long as at the end of it all I confessed all and said 200 hail Marys etc. I would be forgiven of all my sins, my tab would be wiped clean and I could start all over again! Ok, an extreme example and not a very nice one I know, but its true. But I am sure that as with most religions and ways of life, there are things others do not agree with, am not about to sit and pull each religion apart.

You mentioned Dan Brown, I am assuming you were referring to the Da Vinci Code, I actually liked that! and the idea that God is within us all and lives through us in our actions in our lives and that we don't have to go to some man built church every week in order to worship and be guilted into parting with money etc. in order to get closer to "him", no wonder the Vatican wanted it banned! doesn't paint a very nice picture of them all, (yes fiction I know!) but they are one of the richest and wealthiest religions in the world! mmmmm one wonders ha!

[Mark]

Bizzy, I was pointing out that (simplistic version...)

a) Condoms do not let the AIDS virus pass through it. Fact.

b) A medical advisor to the Catholic church says they do. Lie.

I have looked into god's existence, believe me, it'll be good if there was a god then there would be someone to thank/blame for what's going on, but there's not. There's no heaven, no hell, just the life we currently have and we should make the most of it. Like I said before if you need to believe in a mythical being to make your life better then fair enough, I just don't like it when bad things are done in the name of a god or religion. There seems to be too much punishment going on which religious people says it's because "it's god's way" or "it's because he says we are sinners". Just plain daft and medieval in this day and age.

[microbite]

Mark - you have no way of proving or disproving the existence of a higher being, (be that God or whatever else), simply because NOBODY KNOWS FOR SURE until they pop their cloggs, what is actually out there, whether consciousness exists or carries on in spirit or soul or whatever way shape or form, no-one knows for real, I live in the hope that there is. On another note, I am also not arrogant enough to think that in the whole solar system, space, galaxy whatever, infinitey and beyond and all that, that we happen to be the only living things period anywhere, we just havent evolved enough or are not advanced enough in any way to probably comprehend anything other than ourselves, (yes we are that arrogant as a species) or advanced enough to discover much of anything really, so until then, I just live in the hope that our existence has not been in vain and we were not just put on this earth to live and die for nothing. So until that day although I belong to no particular religion, I will carry on with life the way I am leading it, and trying to be the best I can, coz you never know hehe ;-)

[SeanMacGabhann]

oh please - there is an infinite number of things we can never know for sure do not exist - why pick this one????

What possible purpose does believing serve?? Are people bad without belief? What? What purpose is there? Frankly none.

And if a higher power does exist, well what a twisted pervert creating a species such are ourselves, giving us "free thought" and then punishing us if we "mess up"

It's just mental to think any such being exists. Not mental in a "oh the earth is flat - no it isn't kind of way" - but proper barking twisted. Either way. Let's say believers are right and I am wrong... what possible good does that serve? Oh there IS a nutter god who thinks we should have a little test down here - well done you are right. But he is still fucked up proper mental. Ah but now I don't understand his higher purpose do I? There is literally no end to the rabbit-warren people are prepared to go down in the search for this fecker. And if he exists then what? Really? I mean it. SO WHAT?? It only makes everything we do in this life worse not better

Far better surely to wake up tomorrow and be nice to people. Listen to what;s going on around you. Make decisions. Judge a politician (or whoever has power in the real world) by what they say and do and not because of their personality

Why are people aggressive towards religion? Because it seized power a long fucking time ago and has yet to relinquish it. If you HONESTLY think that any person who genuinely does not believe in God could get away with, for example, Obama's inauguration last week you are deluded. It is "nice" to be acknowledged as a non-believer in his speech but the exact same person and policies would NOT be allowed power if he was an atheist. THAT is a damn fine reason to resent religion. For a start

[Mark]

microbite Wrote:

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> Mark - you have no way of proving or disproving the existence of a higher being.

Why can't it be proven? People talk about an omnipresent being that looks over all of us, why can they not prove it? This thing is meant to be massive and can speak to some people. Why can't it just give us a sign? It's not much to ask, how about writing a message, something like "Now do you believe in me" in the sky written with planets?

There's a pink unicorn behind you that's called Dave, oh he's invisible so you can't see him. Just because I said that doesn't make him real but still you cannot disprove him. Neither of us can prove him or disprove him but because we're rational we know he doesn't really exist. Same with god.

I agree about the universe being massive and there may well be other life forms on another planets.

[EDOldie]

and God completeth by the seventh page His work which He hath made, and ceaseth by the seventh page from all His work which He hath made.

Holier than thou or what?