Has anyone tried the Alpha course?

[indiepanda]

snorky Wrote:

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> Why does the Pope still force followers of his

> brand of religion to live shitty, poverty ridden

> lives , banging out kids every year or so , cos

> they cant use decent contraception - is this the

> same god ?

I am no great fan of the catholic church having been raised a catholic, but this is a bit overstated. I went to a Catholic school and most of my class mates came from sensibly sized families - some were even only children. Although my mum stuck with the rhythm method (or more accurately I suppose my non-catholic dad tolerated it), she knew the local priest used to tell her friends that contraception was a matter for their concience alone and he wasn't going to pass judgement on them if they chose to use it.

They used to teach us about using contraception in school too - always presented as the sensible thing to do, not something that would make you burn in hell. Ok, I am willing to admit this is probably way out of line with the pope's teaching, but I think it is closer to how the church operates in this country at least.

[Bizzy]

Huguenot,

I *could* say the same for you, in that the universal truth of your post is ignorance personified.

I wasn't lecturing anyone. I was simply trying to answer questions. I scarcely know what happens in my society because I didn't know about a guy who was arrested four years before I was born?

I didn't suggest you can 'pick and choose' what is written in the Bible. The Old Testament is a collection of books telling a story. The New Testament contains the writings of the early Christian period and words of Jesus Christ.

We didn't have a Christian union at 6th form college. Mixed up kids? I assume you?re long in the tooth, thinking anyone younger than you can't be right or have anything valid to say. Living a Christian lifestyle is more than going to a weekly meeting, and as I said before, more than going to Church weekly and quoting scriptures. When a Christian *lectures* others on their beliefs, it shouldn't be done in smugness. The smugness you see is what your previous thoughts / advice / opinions have planted into your head.

"A religion is something different, and by necessity dogmatic and expansionist. It requires suspension of critical faculties and obeisance to the organisational hierarchy. This isn't being saved, it's being mugged."

What exactly am I being mugged of? By being so ignorant, are you not experiencing a suspension of critical faculties yourself? ;-)

[indiepanda]

Bizzy Wrote:

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> When a Christian *lectures* others on their beliefs, it

> shouldn't be done in smugness. The smugness you

> see is what your previous thoughts / advice /

> opinions have planted into your head.

How exactly do you know that no Christian has ever lectured Hugenot in a smug way?? That's a very dogmatic statement for something you have no evidence that is true.... but then I guess as a believer you get plenty of practice believing in things there is little evidence for.

Unless you are actually telling us that you are in fact God and have therefore witnessed every conversation Hugenot has ever had with a Christian and can prove that the smugness was all in his mind?

[Cassius]

" I scarcely know what happens in my society because I didn't know about a guy who was arrested four years before I was born? "

I knew about the Moors Murderers and that was before I was born.

[indiepanda]

PeckhamRose Wrote:

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> Being good to people for true real genuine reasons is more useful and makes you feel good. Praying to

> ThirdPartyGodSendMoney for other people to do good things is literally a waste of time. We are all we have that we can be

> sure about. If there is a God, she'll forgive me for saying it.

So true. The number of Catholics I knew - my mum included who would every Sunday march off to church to pray but then do very little to support the local community or others is crazy. If instead of sitting around praying they'd used that time and any other time used purely looking after "the church" rather than people on voluntary work they would have had a much more positive impact on society. (My mum's church contribution for a time, and therefore mine during school vacations was cleaning the church... hardly helping people in need!)

Prayer is about as useful as that cosmic ordering nonsense they spout in The Secret. If you want something, get off your arse and do what you can to make it happen, don't wait for some divine intervention.

[Marmora Man]

Palestine of 2000 yrs ago was still under enormous Greek influence and so most writing was done in Greek at that time. Some people wrote in latin, but most wrote in Greek.

I think that Palestine was under Roman rule 2000 years ago and therefore local dialect & latin would probably have been dominant at that stage. In about 325 Constantine established Christianity as the formal religion of the Roman Empire and sometime after that Formal, and later less formal demotic, Greek became the language of the Eastern Roman Empire - which is today known as the Byzantium Empire.

[Marmora Man]

Give it up Leagle Eagle - become a Humanist - all the good values of christianity and other religions without the need to attend or believe in the Tooth Fairy.

The study of religion is OK - as is the study of science, literature, art, folk tales, morris dancing and so on as an academic exercise - but studying religion won't bring you to a greater truth.

[MadWorld74]

Jah Lush Wrote:

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> MadWorld74 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> I'm off to burn in

> > hell.

>

> Have you chosen to be cremated when you finally

> fall off this mortal coil? There seems little

> difference to me.

>

> There are no Gods only religion.

I hear you Jah. No Gods.

I'll probably spontaneously combust before falling off the earth. To be honest. I'm not on God's favorite persons list and I'm not for saving or turning either.

[SteveT]

So to sum up, only Giggirl has tried the Alpha course!

She is very positive about it.

A happy ending and joy to the world.

[Bizzy]

indiepanda Wrote:

> How exactly do you know that no Christian has ever

> lectured Hugenot in a smug way?? That's a very

> dogmatic statement for something you have no

> evidence that is true.... but then I guess as a

> believer you get plenty of practice believing in

> things there is little evidence for.

>

> Unless you are actually telling us that you are in

> fact God and have therefore witnessed every

> conversation Hugenot has ever had with a Christian

> and can prove that the smugness was all in his

> mind?

Huguenot said it :-S. Try asking him why he/she thinks all Christians who lecture others why they stroll around with a smugness.

[Bizzy]

Cassius Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> " I scarcely know what happens in my society

> because I didn't know about a guy who was arrested

> four years before I was born? "

>

> I knew about the Moors Murderers and that was

> before I was born.

I knew about them too. Just hadn't heard of Peter Sutcliffe. What's your point?

[Bizzy]

snorky Wrote:

>

> Which God was it then ? there seems to be a few

> obviously - I dont want to waste my time

> worshipping false Idols and all that shit - I'm a

> busy man

>

> Are Hindus godless cos they dont worship your

> proper authentic God ? does that mean that 10% of

> the worlds populace may be screwed come decision

> day, just cos they made the wrong choice of God,

> yet may have lived decent lives ?

>

> Should I ask Jesus for forgiveness on my death

> bed, I will be granted a free pass into Heaven

> apparently - so why bother spending all your life

> worshipping him,we hen a few quite morphine

> clouded seconds at the end of your hedonistic is

> all that you need?

>

> why does god let babies die or allow disease &

> injury to maim & disable children who have done no

> wrong ?

>

> Why does the Pope still force followers of his

> brand of religion to live shitty, poverty ridden

> lives , banging out kids every year or so , cos

> they cant use decent contraception - is this the

> same god ? are catholcis wrong ? will catholics

> go to heaven , even though they seem to have got

> it all wrong ?

>

> Questions , Questions

The Alpha course would be an ideal place for you to ask all your questions. Unfortunately I can't answer all of them. If you're really serious about finding out, why not try it out?

[Mick Mac]

Marmora Man Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Give it up Leagle Eagle - become a Humanist - all

> the good values of christianity and other

> religions without the need to attend or believe in

> the Tooth Fairy.

>

> The study of religion is OK - as is the study of

> science, literature, art, folk tales, morris

> dancing and so on as an academic exercise - but

> studying religion won't bring you to a greater

> truth.

Absolutely MM - well put - There is no great reason why we are here - we just developed from single cells and became so intelligent we are convinced we are here for a reason, but noone will ever know.

[Jeremy]

Bizzy, in a way I respect your "heart on sleeve" attitude here. But if you can't even answer the most obvious of questions (which Snorky is asking), surely you can't have thought about your beliefs in much depth.

It's healthy to question things... in science and philosophy, no progress would ever be made if we didn't have great thinkers who challenged established beliefs. So why aren't you asking questions? Why should religion be exempt from scrutiny by its followers?

[LegalEagle-ish]

Marmora Man Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Palestine of 2000 yrs ago was still under enormous

> Greek influence and so most writing was done in

> Greek at that time. Some people wrote in latin,

> but most wrote in Greek.

>

>

> I think that Palestine was under Roman rule 2000

> years ago and therefore local dialect & latin

> would probably have been dominant at that stage.

> In about 325 Constantine established Christianity

> as the formal religion of the Roman Empire and

> sometime after that Formal, and later less formal

> demotic, Greek became the language of the Eastern

> Roman Empire - which is today known as the

> Byzantium Empire.

Apparently the Greek influence was still really strong despite the Roman rule as it had snob appeal and all the 'refined' types were well into doing things the Greek way. The devout Jews of the time used to get the hump with jews who became Helenized as it was seen as acting like the Gentilles. Or so I've read recently.

[LegalEagle-ish]

What really gets me with all this is how aggressive people are about religion.

What makes any of you think you have the answers if you don't challenge your own views? You criticise Bizzy for making assumptions and then assume he doesn't question his faith.

Some of you are so reactiionary to the very notion of religion even as an interesting subject to study, that it makes me think that you are being as dogmatic as some of the fervent, creationists you criticise.

Some of you are entrenched and very closed minded so why would you expect to have reached any conclusions about this subject that are worth listening to? How can anyone make balanced judgements from such a dogmatic viewpoint as that?

I thought I knew it was all a load of old wank, until I started reading Jesus's words and the resonance with which his words spoke to me was amazing. I went through the same reactions as some of you, thinking that even if it's written by man and not inspired by God, it's a good read and a decent set of rules to try to live your life by.

But the more I delved and studied, the more I began to feel that this couldn't have been written by man alone. There is something very different about Jesus and I am interested in finding out more.

I want to also find out more about other religions to compare whether they are all like this, or if he is unique and so far he's still standing way higher than anyone else from any other religion I've looked at - but that also needs more study.

I think all of you should stop assuming that you know everything and you might just learn something.

[LegalEagle-ish]

One more thing - don't judge what Jesus said or stood for, by the man made churches who claim to follow him, many of them follow nothing but themselves.

And Hugs - There are some newer versions of the bible that have gone back to the original scrolls to try to ensure they are as accurate as possible to what was originally written.

Also apparently the dead sea scrolls were from a period before Jesus' ministry, but are good for showing the Jewish mindset that he was born into.

Sorry that was three more things.

[indiepanda]

LegalEagle-ish Wrote:

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> One more thing - don't judge what Jesus said or

> stood for, by the man made churches who claim to

> follow him, many of them follow nothing but

> themselves.

And that's why I have no interest in being part of a religion. It's hard to find any that aren't more interested in serving themselves - I think they believe when Jesus said "love thy neighbour" that there was a limit on "neighbour" to people who follow the same religion.

I am unsure as to whether Jesus existed or not, and if he was really the son of god. But I'd rather try to make my own way in the world than follow any one religion's interpretation of it. Religion seems to do more harm than good in my eyes... even if it is just the convenient label one group of people use as an excuse for hating others rather than the teaching of that church.

I don't assume I know everything, far from it, but having been raised a Catholic and having a priest in the family I do know a little about religion.

[indiepanda]

Bizzy Wrote:

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> Huguenot said it :-S. Try asking him why he/she

> thinks all Christians who lecture others why they

> stroll around with a smugness.

Bizzy, you were the one who told him flat out he was wrong and that what he was experiencing was all about him - I'm asking how you can evidence you are right. Ducking the question by saying I should ask him why he said it is a little childish don't you think?

(Huguenot - apols if I've mistakenly called you a man and you aren't).

[RosieH]

It seems to me that there's a little smugness on both sides of this argument... If the Alpha Course isn't for you, does it need to be shot down in flames?

Or am I being terribly naive: is it actually some kind of fundamentalist Christianity and goes on to preach hatred in some form or another?

I know many Christians for whom their faith brings them great comfort and peace, and who live their life contributing to the community and helping others. I see nothing wrong with that. In fact, I think it's rather admirable and there's a small part of me that envies them that conviction and succour. It's not for me, but I wouldn't tell them they were wrong for thinking that way.

I don't see how telling someone they're wrong to believe is any better than being told you're wrong not to.

[SteveT]

Well put RosieH, very succinct.

[indiepanda]

RosieH Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It seems to me that there's a little smugness on

> both sides of this argument... If the Alpha

> Course isn't for you, does it need to be shot down

> in flames?

>

> Or am I being terribly naive: is it actually some

> kind of fundamentalist Christianity and goes on to

> preach hatred in some form or another?

Well, their attitudes towards homosexuality are enough to put me off - not sure if they go as far as hatred, but certainly intolerance. Not all Christian religions are like that - an openly gay friend of mine was a churchwarden for the C of E church in Bath when I was a student there.

http://www.galha.org/briefing/alpha.html

I wouldn't want to stop anyone believing in God or practicing their religion providing they aren't hurting others in the process, and I agree there are plenty of good people who do good things in the church. However, I don't think that applies to all religious people, and I am not sure that on balance the average Christian necessarily does more for society than the average non Christian. There are certainly plenty of people who seem to embody the belief "love thy neighbour" without being part of a religion.

[Bizzy]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Bizzy, in a way I respect your "heart on sleeve"

> attitude here. But if you can't even answer the

> most obvious of questions (which Snorky is

> asking), surely you can't have thought about your

> beliefs in much depth.

>

> It's healthy to question things... in science and

> philosophy, no progress would ever be made if we

> didn't have great thinkers who challenged

> established beliefs. So why aren't you asking

> questions? Why should religion be exempt from

> scrutiny by its followers?

I was happy to answer questions but by the end of page four of this thread, I was beginning to wonder if people were looking to find holes in my answers and some of the points people are making are simply trying to "take the mick" or stir up even.

If anyone is serious about their questions, simple or not, they can go to one of the many courses out there.

Indiepanda

The whole point of *lecturing* to others about Christianity is to spread the word, there is nothing smug about it, but there is a common notion where people think Christians feel they are above others. Where it comes from, I don't know, hence Huguenot said it.

And that's why I have no interest in being part of a religion. It's hard to find any that aren't more interested in serving themselves - I think they believe when Jesus said "love thy neighbour" that there was a limit on "neighbour" to people who follow the same religion.

Where is your evidence to back this up? You've made quite an assumption there.

[indiepanda]

Bizzy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Indiepanda

>

> The whole point of *lecturing* to others about

> Christianity is to spread the word, there is

> nothing smug about it, but there is a common

> notion where people think Christians feel they are

> above others. Where it comes from, I don't know,

> hence Huguenot said it.

To me the word "lecturing" in itself means talking down to someone which by definition makes someone smug. The Christian friends I have don't go around lecturing others on God, they just let their lives be the example, and would only share their beliefs if I expressed an interest.

> And that's why I have no interest in being part of

> a religion. It's hard to find any that aren't more

> interested in serving themselves - I think they

> believe when Jesus said "love thy neighbour" that

> there was a limit on "neighbour" to people who

> follow the same religion.

>

> Where is your evidence to back this up? You've

> made quite an assumption there.

Hmm, you're assuming I've made an assumption rather than experiencing it aren't you? Ok, I am probably overstating it because I don't know people from every religious background and my experiences growing up put me off investigating too much further.

However, I grew up next door to Jehovah's Witnesses, and they really looked after each other, but they were could be pretty unreliable friends when it came to people who weren't part of their religion. I could have plans with the daughter of the family who was the same age as me and we were very close friends, but if she was invited to something social by a Jehovah's Witness after our plans were made, she was expected to drop me like a stone. I don't think even she could see the inconsistency between the comments she made to me about the importance of being reliable, and the way I took second place to her anyone with the same faith as her. And one of my next door neighbours children converted and she hardly ever speaks to her mother now because she refused to convert too.

Come to that, when I went to the Catholic church regularly, we were always praying for people of the parish who were sick - not sick people in general even though there were undoubtedly plenty of very good people who were very sick who didn't happen to be religious. My uncle is a Catholic priest, not in good health now, but used to do plenty of very good things, but it was for people of the parish, not society at large.

And plenty of churches spend time raising funds to look after the church itself rather than people who really need the money - they don't really need the fancy buildings, it's just the trappings of religion.

To me, by definition, as soon as you identify yourself as part of a group, you exclude others, and it's that exclusiveness I don't like - doesn't seem consistent with Jesus' actions which were generally not as exclusive or judgemental as some churches seem to be.

Perhaps it would make a difference if I felt any religion represented my views, might be happy to be part of that group. But though some aren't too far off, there aren't any I feel really match my beliefs, and I prefer not to live a lie by pretending they do.

[Bizzy]

RosieH Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It seems to me that there's a little smugness on

> both sides of this argument... If the Alpha

> Course isn't for you, does it need to be shot down

> in flames?

>

> Or am I being terribly naive: is it actually some

> kind of fundamentalist Christianity and goes on to

> preach hatred in some form or another?

>

> I know many Christians for whom their faith brings

> them great comfort and peace, and who live their

> life contributing to the community and helping

> others. I see nothing wrong with that. In fact,

> I think it's rather admirable and there's a small

> part of me that envies them that conviction and

> succour. It's not for me, but I wouldn't tell

> them they were wrong for thinking that way.

>

> I don't see how telling someone they're wrong to

> believe is any better than being told you're wrong

> not to.

Nobody is wrong when they don't believe in something they know very little about. It's like asking someone that has never had a driving lesson to drive a car. How can one expect someone to drive without crashing? They could take lessons...

Similarly when you go to Church for the first time, one shouldn't expect immediate results. Its a learning process like LE has expressed, it's something you grow in, which in my experience leaves you wanting more.

Simply put, God doesn't expect people to believe in God that don't know what God is about although; God would really like it if they did. That is why it's down to Christians to spread the word.